Looking at upgrading from LE on 003 to HD2 with 192

[protoolsuserman]

Hi there

I have been using an 003 rack with PT LE for the past 3 years now and have been taken in with the upgrade paths on offer to upgrade to HD.

Before i paid out £4175 to exchange my 003 to and HD 2 system I wanted some input from the users of HD themselves to tell me the extra benefits asides from the dedicated processing power.

I am sure you must have been asked this question before, but I really want some advice from the people who use it day in day out who will be able to tell me exactly what i am getting for the money because as you can appreciate, it's a lot of money to speculate when my 003 system is working fine for me at the moment but is starting to show the strain of my track counts.

Many thanks

Rob

[brianjanthony]

I used to run my studio off LE for years. And I didn't have the benefit of the expanded LE track count. Having run HD for 4 or 5 years now, I don't think I could go back.

There are plenty of challenges to an HD system that you might not be expecting. Here's a couple that bit me because I was ignorant at the time:

1) You need to either make (which I did) or purchase a lot of new cables or breakout connectors (everything in HD land is DB25). That can be a hidden cost.

2) There is no more volume knob on the hardware. So you have to get some way of turning things up/down. You may need to buy a Big Knob, Central Station or more expensive box as you please.

3) You've got the benefit and the curse of ADC (Delay compensation). You never had to worry about it before. But you really have to get your hands on it now, and understand how it works (and sometimes DOESN'T work). I cannot tell you how many times I have to FIX mixes done by LE guys here, because they overdubbed something with RTAS on the vocal chain, then when that plugin was removed...ALL The vox were out of time... They had no clue what ADC was. It can make you look foolish quickly.

4) You have to actually learn proper gain staging techniques. HD plugins and busses will clip differently than LE. LE is a lot more forgiving than HD in that regard.

I'm sure there's more, but that's what I got for now. Not that HD is bad. Like I said, I couldn't go back at this point. If you earn a living doing this, its a great tool. In my world, I've had lots of LE guys come rent the place to do bigger mixes. It's never happened in the reverse (I need to go to LE place to do a big mix). Whatever that's worth....

Just beware that there are new challenges, extra expenses, and things you must do differently to make your HD experience a success.

[protoolsuserman]

Hey

Thanks so much for your help

You really have been very helpful.

I wondered a couple of things.

How did you put the vocals back in time with the delay compensation problems you were experiencing?

Also How many break out cables would i need?

I would be getting the hd 2 system upgrade path which is here

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...2&itemid=39835

It comes with the analogue 192 io with digital card as well.

I would want to connect my Focusrite octopre to it via adat and have the analogue input and outputs connected to my wallbox.

Rob

[brianjanthony]

To place the vocals back in time properly, I started by looking at the former mix engineer's original session.... which had Sans Amp and some others on the chain. I turned on ADC, then looked at the value it was getting bumped. Then I wiped the plugs and nudged the vocals by the aforementioned value. At least that's how I remember it. Fun huh?

As far as breakouts, that's kinda how I started. I had an Octopre that went ADAT out of Octopre into 192 ADAT in. (get a good lightpipe cable). Then you will need a DB25 cable that splits into 8 balanced feeds (lots of places sell them or you can make your own if you're handy) for the outputs of the interface. You will also need another Dsub breakout cable for the 8 analog ins on the interface. Whether or not the breakouts are terminated in XLR or TRS is up to your wiring config at the studio. So you need at least 2 breakout cables by my count. FWIW I started out with Dsub to XLR cables.... then later hardwired the interface to my patchbay.

In your specific case, you'd need DB25 to whatever your wallbox takes. I get a lot of wire and connectors at Redco.com and also off of ebay (lots of decent Chinese Neutrik style connectors for cheap).

[protoolsuserman]

Hey

Thanks so much for all of this info. It is a great help!

This has deinitely made me want to go out and buy an HD2 system. Fingers crossed, I will get hold of it by the middle of December.

How limited it HD 2 for me if I am wanting to have around 50 tracks playing at the same time with some instrument tracks and a lot of plugins on them?

Also how much studio down time was involved when you to installed your system in to your Mac Pro?

Many thanks

Rob

[BradLyons]

I've been in this business for many years both as a user and as a Sales Consultant. I have my choice of ANY recording platform I want for my own personal needs, which are quite complex. I chose ProTools HD for many reasons. Now, I own these other systems from Nuendo, to Digital Performer, Logic, ProTools LE, etc etc etc....but HD really is unique. I never worry about latency for not just input monitoring, but input monitoring with plugins. It's common for me to have as many as 64-inputs simultaneously with many GOOD plugins running....including high-powered reverbs that otherwise couldn't be used in the native land, with NO latency or delay issues amongst them. Are native systems powerful enough to mix an entire production inside the computer? Yes, they are---however there is also a difference in the overall quality. I find that the TDM architecture is superior to these other platforms. Now this is NOT to say that the other platforms aren't good, they are! BUT there is a difference there. I have guaranteed performance, stability, and dependability----and if my TDM processing gets full then I still have all of that native CPU available as well.

I can also tell you that this upgrade plan going on right now is the BEST pricing I have ever seen---it's absolutely worth it by a mile!

[brianjanthony]

Is HD2 enough? That's a tough call. In my own experience, it would not be enough. I run HD3 + 1 extra Process card (I guess that's HD4). Why? ADC and high track counts. If you're running a lot of 1 chip per use guys like Eleven or TL Space, you get into trouble quick if you start using RTAS whales like Drumagog FL and such. ADC sucks up A LOT of power depending on how many tracks you are using. Now, you can debate workflow and whether or not you should need that many plugs/tracks/etc. That's not the question for right now. I just know I could not open some of my sessions on HD because of track count/ADC/RTAS eating all the chips. And that's at 44k. If you want to work at higher rates, you could be hurting quick. Email me and I'll send you a screen shot of a crazy rock or gospel mix so you can see the Chip usage.

All that being said, if you run a lot of RTAS plugs and use the cards for ADC and heavy lifting only (ala Eleven), you'll probably be ok. Just remember plugins like Autotune are prob best off as RTAS. For example, on a Gospel session, I had to run like 20 Autotunes (not bad considering there were 40 singers) just to tidy things up. Boy, that HAMMERED my cards. I switched them to RTAS and my computer barely flinched.... and I freed up about ten TDM chips. So you have to learn how to balance.

As far as down time? Mine was a week or so, because I didn't realize I would need all the extra cables (thanks Digi for making me buy from a local studio/Digi vendor... now defunct..... I swear they did it to bury me before I got going).... Make sure you have a monitoring situation in place (again, there'sno volume knobs, headphone outs,etc). I built things up over time. I learned a long time ago the hard way that it's better to buy only what I know for certain I need, then buy more as I discover I need it.

And echoing what was stated before, these are the best prices you'll ever see. JUMP ON IT.

[protoolsuserman]

Hi there

thank you very much for all of your help.

Your input has been extremely valuble.

Will send you an e-mail.

many thanks

Rob

[protoolsuserman]

Originally Posted by BradLyons

I've been in this business for many years both as a user and as a Sales Consultant. I have my choice of ANY recording platform I want for my own personal needs, which are quite complex. I chose ProTools HD for many reasons. Now, I own these other systems from Nuendo, to Digital Performer, Logic, ProTools LE, etc etc etc....but HD really is unique. I never worry about latency for not just input monitoring, but input monitoring with plugins. It's common for me to have as many as 64-inputs simultaneously with many GOOD plugins running....including high-powered reverbs that otherwise couldn't be used in the native land, with NO latency or delay issues amongst them. Are native systems powerful enough to mix an entire production inside the computer? Yes, they are---however there is also a difference in the overall quality. I find that the TDM architecture is superior to these other platforms. Now this is NOT to say that the other platforms aren't good, they are! BUT there is a difference there. I have guaranteed performance, stability, and dependability----and if my TDM processing gets full then I still have all of that native CPU available as well.

I can also tell you that this upgrade plan going on right now is the BEST pricing I have ever seen---it's absolutely worth it by a mile!

Many thanks for this info as well!

Very helpful and yes you are probably right!

Rob

[bukman]

Originally Posted by BradLyons

I never worry about latency for not just input monitoring, but input monitoring with plugins. It's common for me to have as many as 64-inputs simultaneously with many GOOD plugins running....including high-powered reverbs that otherwise couldn't be used in the native land, with NO latency or delay issues amongst them.

Can I ask the difference between the mix latency that ADC compensates for and the lack of input latency Brad mentioned here?

I am also considering the LE to HD jump and was not aware of this feature.

Is Brad saying you can record into HD without the need for a separate outboard mixer to manage latency issues as you need in LE?
How does this work with TDM plugs that have round trip latency etc? And why does the mix process still need ADC?

Apologise for the newby type question but it just seems a little confusing to a non HD user. Exciting to hear by the way but still confusing to someone who lives with latency due to plug ins and and high buffer sizes that exist in LE.

Cheers