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  #1  
Old 06-12-2020, 02:26 PM
MicMan MicMan is offline
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Default Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

I'm moving into more orchestral compositions, and I've been struggling to get past session creation with Kontakt 6 and ProTools 2020. I've tried creating templates for either with a low-instance/high-multi model, and also a high-stance/single-instrument model, but no matter what I do, I seem to run into some pretty hard limits with Kontakt hanging while loading samples.

I'm working with the Spitfire libraries, which I love. With a complete orchestra of strings, woodwinds, and brass, which is around 3 dozen instruments spread across 3 multis/instances, I'm finding that Kontakt is just unable to load them all.

After spending the better part of the day doing the workaround where you create the Multi in another DAW in order to avoid the output channel creation bug that plagues Kontakt on ProTools, I'm finding that I'm still stumped, and just looking at a pinwheel all the time. My machine should be able to handle these kinds of sessions. It's a recent 32GB MacBook Pro running Catalina. My Kontakt samples are on an SSD over USB3.

I'm just wondering if this is just a waste of time. Is anyone using ProTools for orchestral composition using Kontakt, or should I just move on to another DAW?

If you are using ProTools, how are you doing it? How many instruments are you loading? Do you have lots of Kontakt instances with fewer instruments in them, or do you have fewer instances (or even one), that have bigger Multis? Are there any other settings or tips you have on getting it all to work?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 06-12-2020, 03:29 PM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicMan View Post
I'm moving into more orchestral compositions, and I've been struggling to get past session creation with Kontakt 6 and ProTools 2020. I've tried creating templates for either with a low-instance/high-multi model, and also a high-stance/single-instrument model, but no matter what I do, I seem to run into some pretty hard limits with Kontakt hanging while loading samples.

I'm working with the Spitfire libraries, which I love. With a complete orchestra of strings, woodwinds, and brass, which is around 3 dozen instruments spread across 3 multis/instances, I'm finding that Kontakt is just unable to load them all.

After spending the better part of the day doing the workaround where you create the Multi in another DAW in order to avoid the output channel creation bug that plagues Kontakt on ProTools, I'm finding that I'm still stumped, and just looking at a pinwheel all the time. My machine should be able to handle these kinds of sessions. It's a recent 32GB MacBook Pro running Catalina. My Kontakt samples are on an SSD over USB3.

I'm just wondering if this is just a waste of time. Is anyone using ProTools for orchestral composition using Kontakt, or should I just move on to another DAW?

If you are using ProTools, how are you doing it? How many instruments are you loading? Do you have lots of Kontakt instances with fewer instruments in them, or do you have fewer instances (or even one), that have bigger Multis? Are there any other settings or tips you have on getting it all to work?

Thanks
It sounds like you definitely need VE Pro.
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  #3  
Old 06-12-2020, 05:59 PM
MicMan MicMan is offline
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Default Re: Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

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Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
It sounds like you definitely need VE Pro.
I hope not. It looks like this is a memory issue, but I'm surprised that I'm running into it, given all the fuss about going to 64-bit.

I find that as soon as the ProTools executable reaches about 16GB, I get the pinwheel, and then growth of the executable slows to a crawl.

The thing is, my total memory used for the system is less than 24GB. I still have another 8GB of RAM available.

Is the executable size a general issue with ProTools? I don't have any problem loading the full-blown orchestral Multi in Reaper. The Kontakt there grows to about 11GB, with the entire executable just under 16GB.
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Old 06-13-2020, 01:18 AM
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Stephen Bond Stephen Bond is offline
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Default Re: Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

This library is extremely efficient yet still sounds fantastic. What's even better is you can get it for free!

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a...stra-discover/

Should have no problem using a half decent Mac Book Pro and a few supplement sounds from other libraries.

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  #5  
Old 06-13-2020, 03:21 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

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Originally Posted by MicMan View Post
I hope not. It looks like this is a memory issue, but I'm surprised that I'm running into it, given all the fuss about going to 64-bit.

I find that as soon as the ProTools executable reaches about 16GB, I get the pinwheel, and then growth of the executable slows to a crawl.

The thing is, my total memory used for the system is less than 24GB. I still have another 8GB of RAM available.

Is the executable size a general issue with ProTools? I don't have any problem loading the full-blown orchestral Multi in Reaper. The Kontakt there grows to about 11GB, with the entire executable just under 16GB.
VEPro can solve a whole lot of problems/issues. They have a fully functioning no dongle needed 30 trial. And you don't need a second machine either. And if you run VEPro decoupled that will help to stop PT from being slowed down.



When you say PT executable you're talking about how much memory PT takes up right?


As far as spreading out the vi load, whether in Kontakt 6 or EW Play engine I use one instance for one instrument. Because I don't like using keyswitches for articulation change I'll load up the articulations needed in that instance. Say I need staccato & legato trumpets - they'd go on one instance of whatever vi sampler I'm using. IOW - all articulations for trumpets would go in the one vi. Violins in another vi instance, etc. I don't mix say trumpets and bassoons in one vi instance. Doing things that way also gets me away from having to create multiple output channels in one vi. Although that's not all that difficult in Kontakt and super easy in EW Play.
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  #6  
Old 06-13-2020, 07:18 AM
MicMan MicMan is offline
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Default Re: Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

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Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
VEPro can solve a whole lot of problems/issues. They have a fully functioning no dongle needed 30 trial. And you don't need a second machine either. And if you run VEPro decoupled that will help to stop PT from being slowed down.
Yeah, I'm going to go that route. I've played with this stuff enough for years to smell an intractable problem a mile away. I went through this process with other VI's years ago, and went through a lot of effort to tune my machines. I've changed platforms and gone to SSD, and just haven't had this kind of issue for a few years. But now that I'm doing something slightly more demanding, I can see it's still an issue.

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Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
When you say PT executable you're talking about how much memory PT takes up right?
Yes, as shown in the Mac Activity Monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
As far as spreading out the vi load, whether in Kontakt 6 or EW Play engine I use one instance for one instrument. Because I don't like using keyswitches for articulation change I'll load up the articulations needed in that instance. Say I need staccato & legato trumpets - they'd go on one instance of whatever vi sampler I'm using. IOW - all articulations for trumpets would go in the one vi. Violins in another vi instance, etc. I don't mix say trumpets and bassoons in one vi instance. Doing things that way also gets me away from having to create multiple output channels in one vi. Although that's not all that difficult in Kontakt and super easy in EW Play.
I used EW Play for pianos for a long time. It was the first engine I really struggled with. Eventually it got stable, but it's kind of a memory hog compared to Imperfect Samples on Kontakt. I supposed it could be tuned more, but I only used Play for pianos, and I have a few others that I like a little better now. It still sounds really good, after all these years.

I'm only just getting started with the orchestral work now. I've done OK with small sections of strings or horns in pop/rock mixes, and haven't run into performance issues until I started trying to use a few dozen instruments.

I've tried a few approaches with splitting out the number of Kontakt instances, but the results seem to be pretty much the same, whether it's one, three, or three dozen instances. It seems like it's the total memory used by ProTools that is the issue, and nothing inside Kontakt itself. Kontakt works great as standalone or as a VST inside Reaper or Bluecat.

I haven't really tried to optimize my memory usage yet. I'm still loading the default keyswitched instruments into Multis. I suppose I could go the route of building a template with a lot of instances, and leaving them disabled and then enable and freeze them as needed. That might work. Seems like a bit of a buzzkill, though. But maybe it will force me to be more organized.

I'm just a little stunned, though, that we went through all this effort to go to 64-bit, and the benefit was nowhere near as good as was predicted. Is a 16GB executable really too big for ProTools? I see Michael Carnes using much larger templates before he gets hit with system limitations. So why am I getting an issue at this level? I still have 25% of my RAM free. I get that VE Pro can be a solution, but what is it solving? Total executible size? I'm getting hammered at a measly 16GB.

I'm paid up on another 5 years of PT support. It's pretty annoying that, yet again, I'm paying for another wrapper to make it work.
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:29 PM
massivekerry massivekerry is offline
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Default Re: Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

Yeah, unfortunately Kontakt and Pro Tools don’t get along well when you start building a big (orchestral) template. I have to go the VEP route on the same machine, as well. It stinks.
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  #8  
Old 07-10-2020, 12:02 PM
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falcowe falcowe is offline
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Default Re: Kontakt 6 on ProTools - Orchestral Composition

I also use VEPro, because of Kontakt issues (similar to what you have described). I also wanted to throw this out there that when I was building my template I discovered an issue with EW play where Hollywood Choir wouldn't work if you had negative bars. Also I was having issues with large amounts of EW play plugin in general, pops/clicks and other performance issues and could never get them resolved. So I left the Cloud platform and have had no issues with Spitfire (and other Kontakt based instruments) as well as a few (i.e. 4) instances of Play. And by no issues I mean I can work with just a few pops/clicks so it doesn't really distract from what I'm doing, and for any bounce down I do I just move my playback buffer from 256 (workable in realtime) to 1024 and I have zero issues then.
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