Question on mix bus level and my monitoring level dilemma

[bukman]

Hi all,

Is the PT mix bus supposed to sum all signals to an identical level at the mix bus assuming they are recorded at the same level and have identical faders levels set?

Say I have one track (lets say kick drum) which was recorded into my PT session at -18DBFS. When I play this on its own through my monitors with my fader at unity gain, should it be output at the same level on the mix bus as when I have the kick drum and snare playing simultaneously (assuming both are recorded at -18DBFS and playing at exactly the same time and same fader setting)?

I know this is probably a stupid question but the reason I ask is that I am having issues getting enough level when mixing individual tracks early in the session.

To explain what I mean I like to work on just the kick and bass together before I move onto other parts of the drums and song.
When soloed alone these tracks are coming out at quite low volume through my monitors despite being recorded at or near -18DBFS which the recommended practice these days.
I am trying to listen to my mix through my monitors at around 80db so I can properly hear the bass levels etc.
But the only way I can get my monitors up to this volume level is to crank the master bus fader to maximum early in the session.

Now as the track counts grow the output level improves and I can start to reduce the master bus fader level but I am struggling to get enough volume for things like kick drum when listening to them in solo.

Anyone else have this issue?

I dont want to be tracking at hotter levels than -18DBFS because this is not the right approach and I dont think pushing up the master fader early in the mix seems normal either.

FYI I have a 003 rack and send outputs 1 and 2 of this to a presonus central station where I can switch between my reference track playing on repeat in itunes on my Mac and my PT session easily for comparison.
The reference track comes out loud and clear but not my session.
Also if I drop the reference track into my session it plays really loud also.
Its just my individually recorded tracks I am struggling for volume with despite being recorded at proper levels.

Cheers

[se.audio]

Your should definitely record any signal into PT at the hottest level possible before digital clip (and analog clip of your preamp before that, obviously...). This will ensure you have healthy levels into PT and will also make hiss, hums, and other nasties dissapear more easily (unless the hiss is coming from your preamp, in which case...hmmm...well, you get the point...).

Master fader in PT sums up all of the signals, so if you put a kick and a snare through, the level of the master will be louder than the individual tracks...

[musicalavtech]

Originally Posted by elmostephane

Your should definitely record any signal into PT at the hottest level possible before digital clip (and analog clip of your preamp before that, obviously...). This will ensure you have healthy levels into PT and will also make hiss, hums, and other nasties dissapear more easily (unless the hiss is coming from your preamp, in which case...hmmm...well, you get the point...).

Master fader in PT sums up all of the signals, so if you put a kick and a snare through, the level of the master will be louder than the individual tracks...

Sorry to disagree with tracking at the highest level before clipping, because then there is no headroom left for fader dynamics and effects processing. -10 to -5 db is a healthy level.

[chrisdee]

I'm shure there are many different tracking practises, but tracking at near clipping level is not a good idea. You want to avoid clipping at any stage as it destroys the quality and dynamics of the recording. As already said, you also loose headroom. Besides you will certainly clip master fader doing so.

[Sounds Expensive]

I usually have my levels sitting full green with an occasional sprinkle of yellow; unless the source is very dynamic with loud transients, then I'll back it off. This would probably equate to about -10 dB.

But yes, the whole "fill it up as high as it'll go" is incorrect.

Sensible recording levels will make your job a lot easier as you insert plug-ins and do any volume rides; because you'll have some headroom to spare.

[albee1952]

Agreed on avoiding "slamming the needles". Just get your recording levels up to the yellow(barely). You have 2 things to think about here, first; your reference music. It has been mastered, which often maxes out the volume to the very last edge(your stuff will never sound that loud until it has been mastered and squashed with a brick wall limiter). Second, consider what happens as all your tracks combine. If you have 24 tracks, all recorded(or processed) to -6db(just a random choice), each time you double the signals(by mixing them), the output level goes up(2 tracks at -6db each yields a mix at -3db). Double that again(4 tracks) and you hit -0. Double it again and again(8 tracks to 16 tracks) and you see how you can end up using all the headroom that the mix bus(48db in the box) has available. What can happen is that you may end up with red on the master before you have all your tracks added into the mix(I hope this is making sense as I am not a physics major). I used to skip using a master and would sometimes end up with a "crunchy" sounding 2mix until I got my head around this. Now I use a master fader and watch out for that red signal(and either pull the master down, or pull down ALL audio/instrument tracks). Mastering engineers like to see a final at around -15db RMS so they have room for "doing their thing", but lots of my projects don't have the nudget for mastering. In that case, I just make sure I don't clip the master, while keeping it as hot as I can. One thing you could do is, turn up your speakers while you mix the drums and bass, then back them down as you start adding things. Just remember the Fletcher-Munson factor(your hearing response changes at different volume levels). Personally, I keep the mixing at a very reasonable volume and crank it up once or twice as I proceed to find out what happens loud.

[daeron80]

There are lots of things to consider and learn about here.

Mono vs stereo level. Kick, snare, bass, and many other instruments are usually mono. If you're mixing in stereo and center panning these instruments, which is usual, the energy will be distributed evenly between the channels and adjusted by the 2.5 dB pan law used by PT. It works like this. If a (soloed) mono sound peaking at -18 is panned hard left, the left bus will peak at -18 and the right bus will be silent. But if it's panned center, each channel of the stereo bus will peak at -20.5, 2.5 dB below the mono level. Keep in mind, though, that summing two channels of fully correlated (identical) material will yield a mono signal that is 6 dB higher than either alone. So if you were to sum the left and right channels of the stereo signal, which are identical and peaking at -20.5, the new mono signal would peak at -14.5 dB. Pulling your hair out yet?

Tracking vs mixing levels. You're right that it's wise to track drums with typical peaks around -18. It's OK if the hottest peaks reach about -10 to -12, but shooting for -18 while setting levels is an excellent idea because it gives you lots of wiggle room. But for mixing, you want to pump those drums up a bit. Use EQ, compression, and maybe tape saturation emulation to make them bigger and louder. How much louder depends on how many tracks need to sound at once. As ablee pointed out, the more simultaneous tracks in the mix, the more headroom you need. But in most pop and rock styles, the drums need to be the loudest things in the mix, considering only peak values. I find that it's usually good to have them peaking around -12 to -9 in the mix, after processing.

Peak vs RMS, and loudness versus level. Loudness is subjective, and a matter of perception. It can be influenced by a lot of things, including frequency, phase coherency, and how transient the material is. The human ear has a sort of volume perception window about 300 ms long. That means a steady tone sounds much louder than a short blip or transient of the same peak value. Drums are largely about the transient. It needs to poke up there above the level of the sustaining notes in order to be heard well and sound punchy. -18 peak can be very quiet if the sound doesn't sustain (drums don't typically).

Mastered vs not. As albee said, it's not quite fair to compare a mastered recording to a mix in progress. Simple solution. Turn down iTunes. Match the level of your reference to your mix. Also, make sure your reference is really worthy of the task. Most records made over past decade are way too dang loud. Find records in your genre that were properly mastered. A good place to look is:
http://www.digido.com/honor-roll-of-...ecordings.html

PT level vs monitoring level. -18 in a DAW could yield any SPL, depending on your monitoring system. If you find that you always have to crank your Central Station to get enough monitor level, you probably need a bigger amp.

[getz76]

I thought the reason we moved to digital was to get the noise floor down. No need to slam the levels any longer. If you have a noisy source, well, that's a different issue...

[daeron80]

No, the reason we moved to digital is because we're enamored of new technology. Also because it's a lot easier, cheaper, and it's possible to get by with a ton less knowledge of what's going on under the hood. It's sure as heck isn't because it sounds better.

[guitar486]

Originally Posted by daeron80

It's sure as heck isn't because it sounds better.

Certainly that's a personal opinion