Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Live Sound > VENUE Live Sound Systems

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-06-2009, 11:16 AM
Justin Bartlett Justin Bartlett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Posts: 18
Default Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Hello everyone. I'm a newbie here, and I don't have any Venue products (though we do have an LE rig), but I'm hoping that may change in the future. I've been hoping the SC48 might be the entry point for my church into the Venue line.

The biggest sticking point for us is the 18-channel limit for the Pro Tools LE connection.

Here's our situation. We're doing a renovation this summer on our smaller sanctuary, a 400-seat space. We've run out of room for the contemporary services in our larger room, so we're adding concurrent contemporary services in the 400-seat room, complete with separate band and message.

We've had "blended" services in this room, but doing full contemporary services requires a significant upgrade, as it will involve micing a full drum kit and the processing that involves, etc.

We will definitely be purchasing a new mixer in this room.

At minimum, we'll purchase an analog mixer with channel direct outs to send to an Aviom monitoring system, but I'd like to make the jump to digital. Something in the $20k range is probably at the high end of our realistic budget for now, so I've been looking at the M7CL and the iLive T as primary possibilities, but I've also been waiting to see details about the SC48 ever since the rumors started.

The primary draw of the Digidesign line for me is the Pro Tools integration, allowing multitrack recording, and most importantly, the virtual soundcheck feature. We have a lot of dedicated volunteers on our audio team, and the ability to train them and have them practice mixing without needing to arrange for a band to play would just be priceless.

The problem is, with 8 to 10 channels just for the drum kit, a limit of 18 channels to and from Pro Tools places a severe limit on the usefulness of this feature for training and engineer practice purposes. It's not completely useless, but it turns a game-changing feature into a rather more marginal benefit over the other choices, and makes it much harder for me to sell the mixer to the rest of the team making purchasing decisions. I end up looking a bit harder at other solutions, including the MADI card available for the M7CL to use with 3rd party recording software.

Our budget at this point, for this room, will not allow us to look at a Profile system with the HD64 option, as much as I would like to have it (and such a system may be in our future a few years down the road).

I don't know where we'll end up, but an increased channel count on the Pro Tools LE interface - ideally to 30 or 32, but even to 24 - would be a true game changer in our decision, and would very likely result in us purchasing an SC48 this summer.

I know Sheldon has commented that this would be "cool" but that engineering priorities have gone elsewhere, and that's understandable, but is there any chance of that changing soon? The SC48 seems like a great console, and given the fact that the LE interface is included in the console, it seems like such an upgrade could have a significant impact on your sales. I can't imagine I'm the only person for whom it's a real factor.

Anyway thanks for all your great work; I'd appreciate any response you can give.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Roland Clarke Roland Clarke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: England
Posts: 210
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Bartlett View Post
Hello everyone. I'm a newbie here, and I don't have any Venue products (though we do have an LE rig), but I'm hoping that may change in the future. I've been hoping the SC48 might be the entry point for my church into the Venue line.

The biggest sticking point for us is the 18-channel limit for the Pro Tools LE connection.

Here's our situation. We're doing a renovation this summer on our smaller sanctuary, a 400-seat space. We've run out of room for the contemporary services in our larger room, so we're adding concurrent contemporary services in the 400-seat room, complete with separate band and message.

We've had "blended" services in this room, but doing full contemporary services requires a significant upgrade, as it will involve micing a full drum kit and the processing that involves, etc.

We will definitely be purchasing a new mixer in this room.

At minimum, we'll purchase an analog mixer with channel direct outs to send to an Aviom monitoring system, but I'd like to make the jump to digital. Something in the $20k range is probably at the high end of our realistic budget for now, so I've been looking at the M7CL and the iLive T as primary possibilities, but I've also been waiting to see details about the SC48 ever since the rumors started.

The primary draw of the Digidesign line for me is the Pro Tools integration, allowing multitrack recording, and most importantly, the virtual soundcheck feature. We have a lot of dedicated volunteers on our audio team, and the ability to train them and have them practice mixing without needing to arrange for a band to play would just be priceless.

The problem is, with 8 to 10 channels just for the drum kit, a limit of 18 channels to and from Pro Tools places a severe limit on the usefulness of this feature for training and engineer practice purposes. It's not completely useless, but it turns a game-changing feature into a rather more marginal benefit over the other choices, and makes it much harder for me to sell the mixer to the rest of the team making purchasing decisions. I end up looking a bit harder at other solutions, including the MADI card available for the M7CL to use with 3rd party recording software.

Our budget at this point, for this room, will not allow us to look at a Profile system with the HD64 option, as much as I would like to have it (and such a system may be in our future a few years down the road).

I don't know where we'll end up, but an increased channel count on the Pro Tools LE interface - ideally to 30 or 32, but even to 24 - would be a true game changer in our decision, and would very likely result in us purchasing an SC48 this summer.

I know Sheldon has commented that this would be "cool" but that engineering priorities have gone elsewhere, and that's understandable, but is there any chance of that changing soon? The SC48 seems like a great console, and given the fact that the LE interface is included in the console, it seems like such an upgrade could have a significant impact on your sales. I can't imagine I'm the only person for whom it's a real factor.

Anyway thanks for all your great work; I'd appreciate any response you can give.

Several people have mentioned about the chance of increasing the channel input count to LE, however, this would probably annoy users that have spent the money to go the HD route. Still nothing to stop you sending the stems to an LE system.

As for the other systems that you mention here, such as the MC7L, the madi card's are quite expensive, you would need at least an RME madi computer card (well over $1,000) and the Madi cards for Yamaha's as far as I know have to be cascaded, meaning that you need at least 2 for 32 tracks at I'm guessing around $1,800 each. This is the best part of $5,000 or more on top of your MC7L purchase price. If you compare the Venue to other products on the market it isn't expensive. If you compare it to products that it can rival (that's anything in the business) it's a very cheap/cost effective system.

Regards


Roland
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-06-2009, 11:50 AM
emluper emluper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 470
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Justin,

I would still go after the SC48 versus an M7CL. The audio quality of the SC48 matches that of the entire Venue line, which cannot be said about the Yamaha products. What Live Sound is trying to deal with is that the FWx functionality comes from the 002 - 003 line which is locked in at 18 channels of recording. In order to introduce ProTools capability quickly they used an available interface, why reinvent the wheel right?

I believe that it would be worth it to wait for Digi to deal with the 18 channel limit and have a console that you WILL be ecstatic over, than to go in another direction because you can't currently record more than 18 channels.

Erik
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-06-2009, 11:56 AM
Justin Bartlett Justin Bartlett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Posts: 18
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Stems are all well and good, but they don't really do the job I'm looking for (virtual soundcheck for volunteer engineer training) very well. And I haven't seen Digidesign reps give the reason you cite (annoying HD64 customers) as the reason for the 18-channel limitation; I've only heard limited engineering resources given as the reason.

I'm well aware that the SC48 is offering a ton for the money, if what I've heard about pricing is correct. But it's only a bargain if it fits our purposes, and an extra $5,000 for MADI cards is a bargain compared to an extra $40,000 for a bigger console and an HD rig, if either option meets our needs.

I can absolutely see that the SC48 would be an amazing fit and an awesome tool for many applications, including many of ours. But for what I'm looking for, the M7CL/MADI combination may end up fitting our needs better. An upgrade to 32 or even 24 channels for the LE connection would absolutely change that.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-06-2009, 12:36 PM
Justin Bartlett Justin Bartlett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Posts: 18
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Erik-

You make some valid points, but the core question is, which console will provide the best sound within our budget?

The SC48 will be a better-sounding console than the M7CL, I don't doubt that. But which has more effect on our audio - the desk, or the person standing behind the desk? Right now our mixers are all analog, but with digital comes the possibility of training through the virtual soundcheck feature. If that feature is marginal due to channel limitations with the LE interface, but I can get an equivalent working with a full channel count on the M7, which makes the most sense?

I agree that waiting for the channel count to be increased could be worth it if it's happening within a reasonable timeframe, but that presumes that it will happen at all. So far all I've seen from Digidesign on the topic is "yeah, that would be nice."

I'm looking forward to hearing any kind of update from Digidesign about this; the SC48 with an increased LE channel count really would be my ideal scenario for our upgrade.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-06-2009, 12:49 PM
Justin Bartlett Justin Bartlett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Posts: 18
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

By the way I do want to say this: this looks like one awesome mixer at its price point. I love everything I see about it. I'm not here to be critical at all - it's precisely because this is such an impressive piece that I really want to find a way for it to fit our needs, and it's really just the one thing that's holding me back from pushing this console hard with our team (meaning budget people).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-06-2009, 12:59 PM
Roland Clarke Roland Clarke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: England
Posts: 210
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

The Mixrack system with protools HD 2 retails at $39,000 RRP, I'm usre street would be around $30,000. If it's that important to have the extra tracks. Arguably for the sake of training volenteers they don't need the full session, just a few channels for overview, plus a few nursed through shows. As you may know I'm a great fan of the Venue, however, it's flexibility and power would be seriously problematic for people who don't have a good knowledge of live sound, unless you strip the sessions down to a few group faders and basic funtions. By the very function of it's quality, it's not beginners kit.

Regards


Roland
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-06-2009, 01:11 PM
Justin Bartlett Justin Bartlett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Posts: 18
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Clarke View Post
The Mixrack system with protools HD 2 retails at $39,000 RRP, I'm usre street would be around $30,000. If it's that important to have the extra tracks. Arguably for the sake of training volenteers they don't need the full session, just a few channels for overview, plus a few nursed through shows. As you may know I'm a great fan of the Venue, however, it's flexibility and power would be seriously problematic for people who don't have a good knowledge of live sound, unless you strip the sessions down to a few group faders and basic funtions. By the very function of it's quality, it's not beginners kit.

Regards


Roland
$39k is list for just the Mixrack. Add the HD64 bundle and it's $55k, which unfortunately is well outside our budget, even if street price is $45k or so.

As for the rest of your comments, believe it or not I'm familiar with my own needs and my volunteers. And "a few channels for overview, plus a few nursed through shows" is not as effective a training tool as a more extended period of training and practice when I want to teach a volunteer to mix a full band. That's been our approach until now, and it gets us by, but I've been hoping to revolutionize that process. I want to give them the opportunity to *practice* - to try things, to make mistakes, to learn, and to *mix*, without the immediate pressure of a live audience, or a band that's getting tired of playing just for the sound guy. But yes, I need the full session to do that effectively.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-07-2009, 01:25 AM
emluper emluper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 470
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Justin I understand what you're saying. I think that you'll have to count the cost all the way up the line. Depending on what you're planning to use, the MADI option could price you out of what you can afford also.

I have no idea whether or not the Live Sound guys are working on their own version of the firewire interface, or if Dave Lebolt would even let them. I do know that they've been hearing it regarding the track count limit since the FWx card was released in '05, and I'm sure that it has only gotten worse since LE track count in PT8 went up to 48 channels. I also know that it is a serious concern to Sheldon and some of the other guys, but some priorities are out of their hands. Hopefully now that the SC48 is out they will have time to concentrate on some of this stuff that is still kinda hanging around.

Being that I also come from a church I do understand the need to make sure that you're being a good steward of the tithe that your church receives, and I do understand the budget fight because we spec'd a D-Show at the '04 AES show when no one had even had the chance to hear one. Hopefully whatever direction you go in your thoughtfullness and thorough planning will bless your congregation.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-07-2009, 01:43 AM
Roland Clarke Roland Clarke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: England
Posts: 210
Default Re: Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Bartlett View Post
$39k is list for just the Mixrack. Add the HD64 bundle and it's $55k, which unfortunately is well outside our budget, even if street price is $45k or so.

As for the rest of your comments, believe it or not I'm familiar with my own needs and my volunteers. And "a few channels for overview, plus a few nursed through shows" is not as effective a training tool as a more extended period of training and practice when I want to teach a volunteer to mix a full band. That's been our approach until now, and it gets us by, but I've been hoping to revolutionize that process. I want to give them the opportunity to *practice* - to try things, to make mistakes, to learn, and to *mix*, without the immediate pressure of a live audience, or a band that's getting tired of playing just for the sound guy. But yes, I need the full session to do that effectively.
If you need to train voluntteers to mix a full band and have complete control of the audio for the service then I respectfully suggest that it's going to take more than plugging in a full 32 channel band mix. My suggestion was that the major principles of the desk in operation could be taught using FWx, the intricacies of live sound mixing a band, will only happen with someone standing at the desk week after week watching someone else and being allowed to gradually do more and more, with someone to safeguard things if they go wrong. There are plenty of college courses that try to teach on the basis of "simulated" sessions, great as the virtual sound check is, it's a tool for tweaking shows and refining mixes, not, for giving people an artificial handle on what the job really entails.

There are plenty of us here that do this for a living and know how hard it can be, getting "volunteers" to get by is a big ask.

Regards


Roland
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PT10.0.1/Venue SC48 Al Rettich macOS 0 05-07-2012 02:24 PM
SC48, Venue 3.0 & Clicks Tigerspill VENUE Live Sound Systems 7 04-30-2012 02:23 PM
New webinar: Meet the VENUE SC48 Remote System, Stage 48, and VENUE 3 bobcats VENUE Live Sound Systems 2 03-24-2012 07:35 AM
Just got our Venue SC48 ionStorm VENUE Live Sound Systems 0 03-10-2010 02:52 AM
VENUE D-Show 2.8 Standalone Software for VENUE SC48 Avid VENUE Live Sound Systems 0 05-13-2009 12:30 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:50 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com