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  #1  
Old 01-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Joe Mendelson Joe Mendelson is offline
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Default LCD TV Recommendations?

Hello all -

I am about to purchase my first LCD TV for a new mix room I am bringing on line. Up til now, I have been all CRT, all the time in my other rooms. This new room is just too small, thus the need for the flat panel. I would prefer LCD due to the lighter weight, but would consider plasma if it meets the following criteria:

1. Looking for the model with the best looking SD video. Most of these tv's, both the LCD's and plasmas, do a pretty crappy job of displaying SD. Like, for example, the fancy 50" Panasonic plasma I have at home. So if anyone has found a particular model to be particularly adept at this still-critical function, please advise.

2. I like the speakers on the side, rather than on the bottom. I do lots of listening through the TV's speakers when I mix (for TV), and I would prefer the (minimal) stereo spread of having them on the side of the screen, not the bottom. This style of speaker placement seems to have..gone out of style on the newer models, so I may have to live without this, but it would be nice.

3. Smallest amount of video signal delay. Last time I ventured into this world was about 2 years ago. I bought a very big rear-projection DLP set that clients loved, but it had about a 4 frame delay. Not Good. I know all these 'HD', 16x9 sets have some amount of delay. But in this case, less would definitely be more. I will be sending component signal from a mojo, which allows for whole frame offsets (when using non-quicktime, avid video). So it would be nice if the amount of delay, when sync-checked, was an even frame number amount!

Any recommendations?
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  #2  
Old 01-02-2008, 06:18 PM
philper philper is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

Is a whole-frame delay common on any sort of LCD or plasma set? Or is it always a fraction? I'm interested in the results of this search too, as I'll be mostly looking @ SD video for some time to come.

Philip Perkins
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:13 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

Quote:
Hello all -

I am about to purchase my first LCD TV for a new mix room I am bringing on line. Up til now, I have been all CRT, all the time in my other rooms. This new room is just too small, thus the need for the flat panel. I would prefer LCD due to the lighter weight, but would consider plasma if it meets the following criteria:

1. Looking for the model with the best looking SD video. Most of these tv's, both the LCD's and plasmas, do a pretty crappy job of displaying SD. Like, for example, the fancy 50" Panasonic plasma I have at home. So if anyone has found a particular model to be particularly adept at this still-critical function, please advise.
?
IMO, all these LCD and plasma-screens look crapy if you use the analogue composit-ins. Porbably due to the A/D conversion and crappy scaling going on.

Use the HDMI or DVI-ins of those screens to get a better image. However I haven´t yet seen an LCD that looks as good as a decent CRT video-screen when using the analogue ins.

Second problem is that when you live in the PAL-world all LCDs have a 60Hz refresh-rate wich leads to images that have some kind of shutter effect (50 fields resampled by a 60Hz display). Unlike CRTs in the PAL-world ALL consumer LCDs display PAL signals at 60Hz refresh rate. I guess that way the mfg doesn´t have to make two different electronics for PAL und NTSC market.
There´s a new Samsung that can display real 24P and a some Panasonic and Sony professional LCDs that offer true video-rate display but they are VERY expensive.

frank.
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  #4  
Old 01-03-2008, 10:59 AM
amiller amiller is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

This is one of the better reviewed sets:


Sony Bravia

It has a 120Hz refresh rate. A couple video editors in my building are outputting video to these now. It does look pretty sharp in SD as well as HD.

Don't know about the delay. In my experience, you'll need to go through the manufacturer to get the exact amount. But probably just go ahead and get syncheck....



Syncheck
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  #5  
Old 01-03-2008, 06:56 PM
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Chief Technician Chief Technician is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

My brother is an ISF certified calibrator. He has said good things about the Bravia.

All the screens I have ever measured do not have a whole number for their delay values.

The A/D conversion of a video display is referred to as its video decoder.
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  #6  
Old 01-06-2008, 09:50 AM
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Delta Music Belgium Delta Music Belgium is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

Maybe you can read this thread. It's about "Test results: MOJO + SONY 40" HD LCD TV + SynCheck II", the Sony LCD TV is a Bravia...
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:57 AM
KK Proffitt KK Proffitt is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

Quote:

IMO, all these LCD and plasma-screens look crapy if you use the analogue composit-ins. Porbably due to the A/D conversion and crappy scaling going on.



frank.
Actually the analog outs are down-rezzed because of DRM (ie...they don't have any). I agree; they look like crap. I found this out the hard way with my HD DVD copy of "The Departed" and my Toshiba player. Frankly, I'll be glad to see Blu-Ray take over and kiss that piece of junk goodbye. I now have an HDMI switcher and yet another remote on my home system. I've been meaning to put everything on a Harmony remote, but crawling behind everything and getting the product numbers off the back of stuff is not
something I'm dying to do.
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  #8  
Old 01-07-2008, 05:57 PM
Joe Mendelson Joe Mendelson is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

thanks all for those replies. and thanks marc for that thread. so it seems the consensus is that:

1. all these lcd/plasmas have some delay.
2. this delay is unlikely to ever be exactly in even frame increments
3. you can delay your audio to deal with that. (seems like a pretty good argument for one of the monitor controllers that includes this feature. i'd much rather be delaying my audio outside of PT, for the bounces, laybacks, etc. much too easy to forget to de-activate that plug-in in the heat of battle!)

4. all these tv's do a crappy job of displaying SD analog video.(which is all the original mojo puts out, as far as i can tell).

5. the sony bravia maybe does a slightly better job than other brands dipslaying SD analog vid. (i had heard good things about this model as well from video friends). too bad its not among the cheaper brands.

so: Marc - you've been using essentially the same set-up i want to use. how is that working out for you? and how is the quality of the video (mojo composite out to LCD in)? are you delaying your audio inside PT? has that been a problem?

Chief - you imply that you have measured the delay on more than one of these screens. are you using any lcd/plasmas in any of your rooms? if so, any feedback you can share on that experience?

Here's one last thought - it seems like you should be able, by using the whole-frame-offset for avid video in PT, to get within 1/2 a frame, no matter what your delay is (as of course measured with syncheck). In marc's example, if you offset the video by 1 frame, you'd be about 5/16th of a frame ahead. while not ideal, its still a lot better than anything you will get with a canopus, quicktime, and a crt, which slides all over the place as we know. so i wonder if i could live with it, and then get a medium-smallish CRT which sits in the corner for final reviews, checking critical sync, etc.

thoughts?
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  #9  
Old 01-07-2008, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

Quote:

Here's one last thought - it seems like you should be able, by using the whole-frame-offset for avid video in PT, to get within 1/2 a frame, no matter what your delay is (as of course measured with syncheck). In marc's example, if you offset the video by 1 frame, you'd be about 5/16th of a frame ahead. while not ideal, its still a lot better than anything you will get with a canopus, quicktime, and a crt, which slides all over the place as we know. so i wonder if i could live with it, and then get a medium-smallish CRT which sits in the corner for final reviews, checking critical sync, etc.

thoughts?
There is research that should help you decide which way you want to err, once you know what the delay value is, and which signal is the delayed one.

Even with Mojo (SDI), playing a QuickTime out of the peripheral will result in some degree of drift, for QuickTime media is still subject to the quarter frame offset and is not genlocked to the frame edge, since it is not being processed by the Avid video engine.

I once measured a CRT that was HD capable. It had a one (1) frame delay with SD video.
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  #10  
Old 01-08-2008, 05:54 AM
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Delta Music Belgium Delta Music Belgium is offline
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Default Re: LCD TV Recommendations?

Quote:
so: Marc - you've been using essentially the same set-up i want to use. how is that working out for you? and how is the quality of the video (mojo composite out to LCD in)? are you delaying your audio inside PT? has that been a problem?

It is working out very well for me actually. In my 5.1 sessions I mix to a 5.1 Surround Bus on a 5.1 Surround Aux Input, this Aux Input is routed to the 5.1 Master Fader. On the 5.1 Master Fader I have inserted a multi mono TDM Waves DLA Plus. I use a delay of 28,5 millisec (1368 samples at 48 kHz) on all 5.1 channels (+ an additional 2,5 millisec. 'time delay compensation' on RL and RR to compensate for incorrect speaker placement in the control room).

In this way I have perfect audio/video sync with the LCD TV + correct sound in the control room due to the 'time delay compensation' on RL and RR. But it does not affect my PT session in any way, the 5.1 Surround bus on the 5.1 Surround Aux Input is clean without any delay compensation and can be used for bouncing, etc...

Btw, I use a high end Grace Design m906 5.1 monitor controller between the 192 outputs and my Genelec's, indeed it would be very nice to be able to delay the audio channel by channel so I can skip this step in PT.

About the video quality: I like it very much, in my setup with Mojo I can hardly see any difference between Composite Out, S/VHS Out or Component Out, it seems the Sony Bravia Engine can handle them all very well
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