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  #51  
Old 11-04-2011, 09:48 AM
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TOM@METRO TOM@METRO is offline
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

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Originally Posted by danander11 View Post
Max,

First I want to clear something up… I have no axe to grind with you personally. You just happen to be the guy at the front and the guy answering for your organization, so you get to bear the brunt of this.. Again, this is not personal.

dis·in·gen·u·ous/ˌdisinˈjenyo͞oəs/
Adjective:
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.



I think that part of what is happening right now is a problem of perception.. You are answering from a position of knowing things about the future that we do not.. and since we do not know, we tend to view things a bit, (sometimes a lot), differently.

Take the term ‘value’.. It is a term that is getting used a lot lately in response to pricing concerns in an attempt to justifiy, (from your (Avids) perspective), the ‘value’ of PT10. Whilst it is true that there are new features in PT that make it desirable, the ‘value’ that Avid has placed on them as an aggregate is more than the sum benefit for the average user., from our perspective.

With the release of PT10 there seemed to be great benefit for the post/broadcast crowd, and less so for the music side of things. There is no doubt that things such as clip gain, disk caching, real-time fades, etc.. help us.., but not as much as other features would. And therein lies the rub, (as they say)…

The fellows getting slugged the hardest, (TDM), are the ones that are getting the least benefit from this release., at least on the music side of things. They typically have invested FAR more into Avid, (and Digi before), than the guys with PT and the CPTK have.. Yet they’ve been led behind the woodshed and spanked… Further, the farther back they were, the harder they got spanked. Before you toss ‘value’ out again, almost to a person, everyone that I’ve talked with using TDM did not leave 8 or earlier because 9 offered them so little an improvement that the cost wasn’t acceptable at the time. Then to add insult to injury, the combined costs of each upgrade added to the next were FAR under what they are being asked to fork over now for 10.

There is no ‘value’ in that Max, except for the ‘value’ that was lost in terms of the relationship between you and your customer.

With regard to your answers, question one pointed out the disparity between your perceived ‘value’ for your product, and our perceived ‘value’.. and you were asked how you got it ‘so wrong’…

Your answer was to jump on the ‘value’ bandwagon and march off into service contract land, that most of us had never heard of. Then to make matters worse, there was confusing and sometimes conflicting information regarding it..

Further, It’s been over a week now since the service contract issue was ‘clarified’ yet the dealer I talk to here still has no idea.. They can’t even answer confidently on any of the upgrade paths! Add to that the fact that TDM users do not even get to use some of the ‘big’ features of 10 and for folks on 8 or below they cannot even get it. Where’s the ‘value’?

In question five you begin your answer with, “Our loyal following is our greatest asset.”.., yet your answer here has completely ignored a large section of users, (HD 7&8, some earlier), that have spent a lot of money with you over the years.
Not only can they not use some of the larger features of 10, they cannot get a service contract either. And, at least publicly that I’ve seen, no one will even answer them as to why…

Maybe you can begin to see our perspective.

As for the free trial offered, I’m of mixed minds about it.. On one hand, it’s a nice offer, and generous as I’m sure there was a cost in getting temp licenses created. On the other.. It’s a lot of work and a bit of expense, (time not included), to set up a system and test it. A person needs to see how it works in their flow, with their gear… For someone that cannot take a day to get things up and running smoothly and has to stretch it over a few days, that doesn’t leave a lot of time for them to use it… But who knows, maybe it will only take them ten minutes..

Further with the contract pricing.. We are a cynical lot. From where I sit it sure looks like you’ve pushed out an over-‘valued’ product only to put it on ‘sale’ to a select few, and then with the lower price tied to service obligations and future revisions. If it’s ‘value’ is really worth $599 to Avid with support obligations and future upgrades, surely a reasonable man would say that it must be worth less without. Are we being unreasonable?


As to question two, you say: “The addition of Clip Gain, Disk Cache, new rendered AudioSuite workflows, and the inclusion of a premium Channel Strip will save customers time, open up new workflows, and help them focus on getting the best sounding mixes.

For the TDM guys, (and we’ve already establisher their ‘value’)., they cannot use 16k ADC and 32 bit floating point. I would venture to say that although channel strip is nice, it is not so different than any one of the channel strips we already had as to be worth $1k+.. The same can be said for rendered audiosuite and clip gain… these are nice to have, but not worth what you’re asking in light of everything that’s happened.

Honestly, had you initially prices the HD upgrade at $599, there would have been a few grumbles, but folks would have come to it.. in larger numbers than you are seeing now.. and allowing the pre-9 guys to buy in at the same price would have been good for you financially and in terms of customer appreciation. Just a quick sqizz at the forums and blogs will attest to that.

Then we get to the 64 bit portion of your answer. This one sticks in my craw to be honest… When you say, “By comparison, if we released a version optimized for 64bit OS’s at AES, none of the 3rd party developers would be ready, and our TDM customers would be shut out of some of the great features in this release.

I really can’t understand this one.. Current TDM users cannot use all of the new features in 10 anyways. HD|N and CPTK uses get more features, (and for a LOT less money).

Also, your answer suggests that you have held 64 bit back so that the plug developers could get ready and folks wouldn’t be inconvenienced… Max, folks are having to use Reaper, Logic, VEP, etc…. right now just to get their VI’s running smoothly.. Can you not see the inconvenience in that?

You explain how 10 is a transition to 64 bit operability for everyone.. but say it is not a transition.. (stepping stone if you will), and you are charging a lot of money for that… Given our history with Digi/Avid, and this latest release surely you must see that we are as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs about the pricing when you finally DO go to 64bit.. With this pricing scheme you are setting a precedent that no one is happy with. Aside from the fact that your statements are seemingly contradictory.



For question three I am , once again, going to say there is a perceptual difference here. You say: “Yes, we are making a clear statement about the business we want to be in“…

OK.. At face value you seem, (to me at least, and others), that you want to be in the post/broadcast audio/visual business. This release has given nothing to the music side that they have been clamouring for for years.

The new features in 10 appear to be residual with regard to the music side of things.. designed more with post/broadcast in mind than with us.. The new products and pricing speak volumes as to where you want to go.. and it’s not with the middle guys struggling in this economy to keep their doors open.

Maybe the perception ‘fault’ lies with us and our perceived value to Avid.. Though I cannot imagine that the money that we contribute to Avid each year is inconsiderable.. Perhaps we place too high a value on our contribution to the longevity of Avid.

Then you say this: “Obviously, home musicians and aspiring music professionals have a lot of options and many of them are very good for some things—but none of them deliver scalability from the entry-level to the largest commercial needs, complete hardware and control surface integration and the stability that it provides, premium conversion quality, the strongest recording/editing/mixing toolset in the industry, and professional workflows needed by music and audio post pros. Pro Tools gives its users all of this and as a result it’s better adept at taking you from concept to completion, from creation to master, than any other DAW.

Max, this is market-speak in fine form. Every DAW manufacturer out there makes similar claims.. When I hear this coming from Avid, and see the ‘chinese fire drill’ of a release and pricing structure… followed by confused and disjointed information and explanations.. I can only shake my head and wonder if you guys even have your feet on the ground. The amount of polish and spin in that statement astounds me.. Max, I’m glad you are passionate about your company and it’s products.. but they have boogers and warts just like all the rest. And with your actions alienating long-time customers.. what’s a new guy to think? Sorry, I just can’t fully buy this one.


To question four. You were asked if Avid appreciated the fact that we users were concerned about the increasing prices etc… and you answer spoke nothing to the question… Nothing about our concerns… only more market-speak and talks of a contract that very few can take advantage of..

What that says to me, (and again, others), very clearly is that Avid doesn’t give a hoot as to what we think about things… Worse, you try to foo-foo it off by saying it’s nothing more than a challenge that will have rewards, and later trying to minimize it by comparing it to a cup of coffee..

If that is the official view of Avid, I’ll take and HDX and two 16x16 I/O’s and I’ll gladly send you $2 a day. Deal?

Does THAT change your perspective?

Finally we come to question five… and again I’ll reiterate. You start out by saying: “Our loyal following is our greatest asset. “.. I think that I have shown that that is not always the case… and it seems to be getting fewer and farther between to us.

Then you say: “We feel an enormous responsibility to our customers and take great pride in delivering the tools and feature sets they need because after all, that is how customer loyalty is earned—by the products we make, the problems they solve, and inspiration and creativity they unlock to bring“… That is only a partial answer at best Max, and it is entirely biased towards Avid. There is more to earning loyalty from a customer… Providing good service, being loyal to them, actually listening to them instead of just saying that you do all the time… and more…

You want to learn about building customer loyalty? Have a talk with Eric Pershing or Joe Malone or Dave Derr or any one of a hundred other guys…. You are driving us away and you think that is building loyalty? Wow.


Finally, I want to get back to perception again. When we see answers that to us look like nothing more than marketing talk.., when we see friends being disenfranchised, (older TDM guys).., when we see confusion reigning and stocks tanking.., when we see websites being altered and threads being heavily policed in order to clamp down on the hue and cry of an angry customer base, then see one of that companies leaders stand up and talk about loyalty building… can you not see how we differ in our perception? And maybe why we feel the way we do?


I mentioned at the beginning that you speak from a position of specific knowledge about untold future happenings, and we do not. You may very well release an update free of charge next week that adds 58 million new things and appeases everyone.. We don’t know.

What we do know is that Avid appears confused, uncertain and out of touch. This is our perception. With the answers you’ve given Max I feel that my description of disingenuous is apt.

With regard to everything I’ve said here.. I am speaking only to the upgrade path for the software. I have said before and I will say now that I think HDX is exciting and looks to be good value for what it replaces. I am not speaking to hardware trade-ins, EOL, etc… that’s for someone else.

I do not want to see Avid go under or sink any lower. I do not want to see more layoffs, higher prices, fewer product offerings. I think that Avid has done a good job over the last few years in bringing new things out.. (although slowly, very slowly ;-) ). I would like to se Avid become so successful that instead of people complaining about wages/bonus’ etc… that we all asked why aren’t you being paid more..

Though I come off like a plick here sometimes, I’m really not, and I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I’m opinionated and a bit trigger happy sometimes, but I’ll humble myself when I’m wrong an eat my humble pie with grace. . There are some good folks on the DUC that know me and have met me and I think they will attest to that. Not that that matters to anyone but me…

Max/Avid, we disagree seemingly on a lot of things… One thing I think that we should both agree on is that our relationship is not that healthy and our loyalty is pretty bruised.

Peace.
I’m hoping the response to this will be equally as interesting.
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  #52  
Old 11-04-2011, 09:57 AM
DontLetMeDrown DontLetMeDrown is offline
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Question Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

Max, why are you still selling the PTHD10 upgrade for $999 in in the Avid store?

I do not need a support plan- so it would be nice if I can go to the Avid store and pay $599 for just the software with NO support. That should be a BETTER deal for Avid since they won't have to provide me with any support. I cannot buy the support plan (I tried) because I do not have a core card/serial number (I have a PTHD9 license bundle). I will buy PTHD10 upgrade in a split second if you guys make that change.
  #53  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:03 AM
mlemos mlemos is offline
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

there's also the fact that they just laid off 200+ employees. what this means to me, as a customer, is that avid is offering LESS yet charging MORE.
  #54  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:13 AM
wrachilla wrachilla is offline
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Gutnik View Post
At this time, I have nothing else to report on pricing. We believe the Support Plan for $599 and all that comes with it is a great deal for our professional customers and encourage you to take advantage of it.
So, professional/big studios is obviously the direction, here. Yes, it's easier to support fewer folks with deep pockets and get a higher margin. So, it seems like the statement has been made "Here at Avid, we're all about the money...any upgrades, no matter if you think they are worthless, are gonna cost you...and BIG!"

Max, what doesn't make sense is taking this direction when the competition is already doing what PT's only now inspires to get to someday! Trying to catapult into niche leadership doesn't work when you need to spend 2x's the effort than what your competition is doing: 1) 1x just to keep up and 2) 2x to try and get ahead.
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  #55  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:16 AM
arhall arhall is offline
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

Quote Posted by Danander

"You explain how 10 is a transition to 64 bit operability for everyone.. but say it is not a transition.. (stepping stone if you will), and you are charging a lot of money for that… Given our history with Digi/Avid, and this latest release surely you must see that we are as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs about the pricing when you finally DO go to 64bit.. With this pricing scheme you are setting a precedent that no one is happy with. Aside from the fact that your statements are seemingly contradictory."

+1
  #56  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOM@METRO View Post
I’m hoping the response to this will be equally as interesting.
+1

amazing post danander11

(.....getting the popcorn ready)
  #57  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

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Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
+1

amazing post danander11

(.....getting the popcorn ready)
+1
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  #58  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

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Originally Posted by propower View Post
+1
+1
  #59  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danander11 View Post
Max,

First I want to clear something up… I have no axe to grind with you personally. You just happen to be the guy at the front and the guy answering for your organization, so you get to bear the brunt of this.. Again, this is not personal.

dis·in·gen·u·ous/ˌdisinˈjenyo͞oəs/
Adjective:
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
I also would like to see a reply to danander11's post above. Avid's "non-answer" replies were the typical corporate/sales/politician responses:

AUB Question:

Quote:
How does Avid think they got this so wrong, particularly in respect to upgrade pricing?
Avid:

Quote:
The question here is one of value, and Pro Tools 10 brings a ton of it.
Sorry Avid, but that wasn't the question put forth to you. You turned the question around, made it into your own question, and then answered. A typical corporate non-answer to the real question. The question wasn't one of value that you veered off into. The question was this:

Quote:
How does Avid think they got this so wrong, particularly in respect to upgrade pricing?
...and that was just the first question, never mind the rest.

The global real world reaction and disapproval to the new pricing scheme clearly indicates a wrong decision was made and not accepted by the "loyal following". Do you not do marketing surveys prior, or observe the reactions of the end user base? Did you survey your beta team on the new pricing scheme? That would have given you some indicator, would it not? Please Avid. Answer the questions directly without veering off into obvious non-answers. You're just digging the hole deeper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
Trying the demo wont make me want PT10 anymore than I already do. I want it,
The above by Benoni is a perfect example of why this demo will do nothing. Why? The demand for PT 10 is already there Avid...and always was!! Everyone wants it. The loyal following already wants it just because it's a new PT release, regardless of new features. You don't need to create a demand for the product, as the demand is already there. You need to answer the demand and handle the biggest barrier that gets this product purchased and in their hands. That barrier that prevents this is your new pricing scheme. Every upgrade for the past decade has been around the $100 to $200 mark or so. You announced PT 10 way before it was released, thus giving the end user ample time to prepare financially for the usual $100 to $200 upgrade price. Is it really a shock to you that inflating the price over 300% gets an overwhelming negative response by the loyal followers?

The demo will do nothing for a demand that's already there. Personally, I think it will hinder future sales and do the opposite. Why? Because PT is so picky with the the system it runs on that you'll get many trying to run it on everything that's out there. When they see that it wont, more negative feedback around PT 10 and Avid will ensue. Selling PT Essentials in Best Buy was a fine example of this. I can only imagine what the DUC will be like when this demo gets out. You're digging a deeper hole Avid.

I can evangelize PT 10 and all it's great features for you, but the barrier that gets it purchased and used is something that you'll have to sort out. That barrier is the price. It's up to you.

Shane
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  #60  
Old 11-04-2011, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough?

Thanks Danny and Shane,
+1 Mil

Avid, you STILL have a lot of customers that believe in your product, otherwise nobody would bother.
The faith in you as a company has been shaken, this has been reflected in the stock market and the www.
Do not underestimate the repercussions of this.

I personally hope that will not lead to an EOL for you as a company!
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