PROTOOLS 2019.5 Direct or Aggregate Device

[Whiteroomstudio]

HI To everybody

I am using the 2019.5 Ultimate on Mac OS ...
Mac mini 2018 I7, Mojave 14.4
using a WEISS AIF-1 firewire interface (thunderbolt to firewire)
all running PERFECTLY....rock steady

now ... I would like to increase the number of input/output PAST 24IN/OUT
(Maximum from the AIF1).
the way to do it is trough aggreagate device.(by adding a second aif1)
does that could have a change in the sound ?
I mean is going "direct" or "Aggregate Device" using the SAME interface
could change the sound (same clock of course) ?
do you know if aggregate could change the delay (compensated) ? (I have Hardware insert)
Did anybody run some test already ?

thanks for your reply !
P

[Hugh-H]

Hello,
We’ve used aggregate device for years in certain specialized applications and it -can- work well. A few notes -

- Disclaimer - I haven’t used your interface so I don’t know it’s FireWire efficiency. My comments are based on the devices playing nicely with each other on the bus, acting like other CoreAudio interfaces, and you not adding a FireWire drive on top of the now-48 I/O.
- PT with non-Avid hardware won’t go past 32 I/O. You’ll see them listed but can’t assign them as I/O.
- Both devices must be clocked the same, if one is internal then clock the second off the first. Not both internal.
- In AgDev make sure “drift correction” (built-in src) is turned off, it will default on when you add the second interface. Again, both devices must be clocked the same.
- If clocking is the same and src is off they will sound identical to your single interface.
- Your latency may change depending on your current system load. You’re doubling the I/O so.......

I strongly recommend you try before you buy. Your interface may not like two on the bus despite CoreAudio’s capability for that. If you have issues try moving them to separate thunderbolt ports with adaptors. Most of the AgDev issues I’ve seen are clocking and src, and the admittedly rare CoreAudio device that is a pig and won’t play nicely with others.

Good luck,
Hugh

[Whiteroomstudio]

HI Hugh ,
Thanks for your great and detailed reply !

few things
///- Disclaimer - I haven’t used your interface so I don’t know it’s FireWire efficiency. My comments are based on the devices playing nicely with each other on the bus, acting like other CoreAudio interfaces, and you not adding a FireWire drive on top of the now-48 I/O. ////

Yes I can see the 48I/O in the IO setup WITHOUT being aggregate...
by daisy chaining both AIF1 ... the system see them and all is locked the right way ...
now... having Protools ultimate I tough I could (because I see them) have the past 32 output/input ... but hey ! I was dreaming ...

CLOCK/LATENCY/DRIFT OFF/ all is absolutely perfect...
problem being

1-8 in AES
9-24 is optical ... and I can't access the second optical bank at all .
I tough I would have the "possibility" to choose 32 out of 48 physical output...
but doesn't see to work that way.

then It lead to another question ...

can I reach more output with the DIGILINK I/O licence ; being core audio ONLY (no HD hardware) ?
I would be able to reach 64 I/O if I am not mistaken ?
Problem.. you can't "demo" the digilink to test it


I really thank you for your help !

P

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by Whiteroomstudio

can I reach more output with the DIGILINK I/O licence ; being core audio ONLY (no HD hardware) ?
I would be able to reach 64 I/O if I am not mistaken ?
Problem.

no. As said, not without "Avid hardware".

which actually means to get more than 32 inputs and/or outputs you need all of...

Pro Tools Ultimate
A Digilink License (required at or after Pro Tools HD/Ultimate 12.6)
A Digilink "card" like a HD Native, HDX or HD Native thunderbolt
A Digilink interface (could be Avid or third party but must be Digilink)

your current interface could only be included in that if say you used its adat/smux out going into adat/smux in on a Digilink interface... but may not make sense if you are using the interface in the first place as adat input. You cannot aggregate core audio interfaces with Digilink interfaces.

Aggregating interfaces is a band-aid, it may or may not work well. And we never hear about folks doing it with an AFI1... what are you actually trying to do/connect to? How many actual ADAT and AES/EBU inputs and outputs do you need? at what sample rates? Are you running an ADAT preamp into those inputs etc?... you might be better off looking at stuff like UAD Apollo and using their Thunderbolt chaining (not Core Audio aggregation) to reach the 32IO limit... if ultimately you have combined analog and digital IO needs. Or if you really need a boat load of just digital IO then building up a Pro Tools Ultimate DigiLink system with a HD Native Thunderbolt box and HD IO Digital or 192 IO Digital interfaces might make sense... those Digital interfaces can be found used at good prices.

[Whiteroomstudio]

TX Darryl,
I see...thanks for your explanation 10X clearer now.
I am doing 100% music mixing.
Setup is this at the moment :
WEISS AIF1 :
AES 1/2 = going to a very good 2 tracks DA converter (monitoring)
ADAT 9/10 to 23/24 = to Apogee DA/AD 16X.(16 optical I/O)
I am using them to insert analog reverb , analog compression, analog eq, etc..
Meaning at the moment I can use 16in/16out analog trough them
would be good to have a couple more...
Mainly at 44.1K.but would be good to be able to go 96K
adding the second AIF1 give me 8 more I/O at the moment (I had a second AIF1 laying around to test)(without using aggregate BTW)

I need in any case buy more ADDA16X or Rosetta800/192K.

now to get "more" and go to 64IO I would need one of those HD Native Thunderbolt .and the IO licence . And get some X-HD card in each Apogee converter...
hummmm
Probably the easiest way to add 8 more analog I/O is to buy an Rosetta800/192K (going AES to analog) and of course recalculate the hardware delay for this xtra interface.

sorry but something that is STILL not clear for me on the avid site :

Pro Tools | DigiLink I/O License

Work with up to 192 input channels using Pro Tools | HDX (with 3 cards)
Access up to 64 input channels using Pro Tools | HD Native
Double your maximum I/O channels over using Core Audio or ASIO
Wait what did I NOT understand here ??
I can double the Core Audio/ASIO YES or NO ? (Do I understand that to "unlock it " I need Avid hardware even if I don't use it ?(like a "dongle")

thanks for your help on this

P

[Hugh-H]

Hello,

....Double your maximum I/O channels over using Core Audio or ASIO....

I suspect you are interpreting that to mean 64 channels "using CoreAudio or ASIO", it's not. Using Avid's hardware (HDX or HDNative Card) with the Avid I/O (and possibly with option cards, haven't tested) gives you the respective capacity listed. Not through CoreAudio or ASIO.

Hugh

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by Whiteroomstudio

sorry but something that is STILL not clear for me on the avid site :
[snip]

We are all telling you the way thing are and you are looking at stuff elsewhere, hoping there might be a way. There is not. I laid out what you need to do to get more than 32 IO in Pro Tools. If there was a way, everybody here would not be wasting your time.

Your decision is how important more than 32 IO is. And how much you have to spend. If more than 32 IO is very important and you want to stick with Pro Tools them you will need to purchase a DigiLink system. Depending on what you do that might be a few $k for a used Thunderbolt HD native box and two or three used HD IO or 192 IO boxes... or could easily be say over $10k for a HDX card, a MTRX Studio (or MTRX) and a bit more. You need HDX to get to over 64 IO, regardless of whether you want the DSP processing, so what expansion do you really want/want to pay for?

Using digital interface and outboard converters puts you in a more complex situation as well. If I was starting over I'd not be doing that, not when there are so many good interfaces with built in conversion, and pretty high channel counts... sure real analog mic preamps for some things, but I'd keep the DACs onboard. If adding more capacity it's hard not to just consider replacing all the interface and outboard converters, or maybe some of them.

And if interested in more than 32 IO I would sure be considering re-starting with an Avid MTRX Studio interface. With it's 16x16 analog line and two mic inputs,and using it's ADAT to connect up to some of what you have now. Maybe fill that in with some used HD IO boxes.

But all this for outboard effects (and mixing?). If that's the only need, I'd be reconsidering working in the box, maybe reserve a few outboard effects that you are convinced you really need.

If I really did not need more than 32 IO, and wanted to use outboard effects (or mixers?) I'd be looking at something like two UAD Apollo x16 and using Thunderbolt chaining (provided by the Apollo drivers, it is *not* CoreAudio aggregation). With a possible side effect that you will try some of the UAD plugins and give up entirely on out of the box Or maybe an Apogee Symphony IO Mk II with 32x32 analog, or combination of analog and digital) starting with Thunderbolt, but with the nice option to upgrade to Digilink if you want to in future (a nice capability that Avid did not include in the MTRX Studio).

And there is no reason you have to use Pro Tools. You can do all this with no 32 IO Limit in any other DAW.

And especially if you are moving over to Digilink, there is a lot more to understand there, and you should be contacting a dealer for advice, they can walk you though lot of this. Maybe help you look at the MTRX Studio in more detail.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by Whiteroomstudio

can I reach more output with the DIGILINK I/O licence ; being core audio ONLY (no HD hardware)

No. DigiLink is HD hardware.

[Whiteroomstudio]

Thanks to everybody !
All good , need now to decide but very clear right now on the possibilites
Have a great day !

P