Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Pro Tools Software > Tips & Tricks

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-17-2002, 08:17 PM
Ben Jenssen's Avatar
Ben Jenssen Ben Jenssen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oslo
Posts: 3,061
Default Wide stereo image.

I’ really getting into experimenting with delays these days. I’m trying to get really wide stereo image on my mixes.

Have you any experience with tap delays, ping pong and so on? They quickly become too obvious and mess up things (phasing, cluttering).

I stumbled on a way of making vocals sound pretty wide and impressing, but it sounds really dumb: quick autopanning! With Waves mondomod. Like 1/4 or 1/8 of the beat.
Not mixed 100%, of course, but mixed in carefully. The vox was three trax, one lead and two dubs panned a little to the sides. I used it on the vox submix. You should really try it. Doesnt sound obvious at all, like you might think.

Then you have the slap delay on the opposite side technique. I haven’t had much success with it. Kinda messy. I usually think a room reverb does the job better.

I never made any sense of the ping pong either.

And what about drastic EQ on delays...

What do the "pros" do? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-18-2002, 05:03 AM
Ben Jenssen's Avatar
Ben Jenssen Ben Jenssen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oslo
Posts: 3,061
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

Anybody like the "outside the speakers" stuff?
(Stereo prosessors like waves S1 or DUY Wide)
I dont know, I guess I just dont like the idea, sounds phasey and wrong.
But I think perhaps it is even being used on high end productions.

I use S1 to widen or narrow without going over the edge, of course. By the way it is VERY useful for image repair: Correcting an off-center vocal f.ex.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-18-2002, 05:29 AM
Doc Doc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,063
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

Generally, I don't use them on the whole mix but sometimes they can work well on individual mixes.

One area where I have found the S1 very useful is in broadcast post. I recently mastered a TV commercial and used the S1 on the music track set very wide. I was able to mix the music louder without effecting the impact of the dialogue (which I deessed, eq'd and L1'd). When the ad was heard on a ProLogic system, the surround channels were quite active and very effective. In stereo, the dialogue was clear and distinct and the music enveloped you. In mono, the music was a little lower keeping the focus on the dialogue.
The client was very happy and the ad sounded great on TV.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-18-2002, 06:21 AM
SoundWrangler SoundWrangler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 373
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

Have to agree with Doc re: use of stereo enhancers; for me they can generally be used more agressively on a sub-mix rather than the whole track. For music in particular (& as has been mentioned in previous threads on this subject) any more than a very small amount of S1, etc. applied to an entire stereo mix tends to be negative for elements in the center that you'd prefer to be really solid (like a kick drum, or a punchy bass gtr). For me, it generally works better to put this type of effect on a stereo Aux, to select which tracks will benefit from being routed through this kind of treatment.
Stereo "widening" is never a positive thing for mono compatibility, though. (Not a concern for my work, but for broadcast video post guys espec. it's something to keep in mind.)

Another (widely-known) tip regarding delays in music mixes: take the trouble to make your delay times correspond to some note value at the current tempo (i.e., 1/16, 1/8, 1/8 triplets, 1/4 triplets, etc.) - this can reduce some of the "clutter" Ben mentions above, from random, non tempo-related timing factors clattering around inside your mix. (Some people also apply the same idea to longer reverb pre-delays.)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-18-2002, 06:41 AM
Doc Doc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,063
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

Quote:
Stereo "widening" is never a positive thing for mono compatibility, though. (Not a concern for my work, but for broadcast video post guys espec. it's something to keep in mind.)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, with all due respect, I wouldn't say 'never a positive thing' in this situation but it is crucial to monitor your mix in mono.
In my above example the music level drop in mono was a positive thing. When this mix is heard on a mono TV, it is actually desirable to have the music slightly lower for dialogue clarity.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-18-2002, 09:53 AM
SoundWrangler SoundWrangler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 373
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

Fair enough - "usually", perhaps? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I was thinking more in terms of the usual advice re: wide stereo FX etc. & phase cancellation, or UNWANTED level drops when stereo tracks are played in mono, espec. since I've seen some of these ugly little surprises happen when folks get too enthusiastic with stereo "widening" effects. Your example, using this to your advantage in the Surround context, was actually pretty clever & interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-18-2002, 12:21 PM
lwilliam lwilliam is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Valencia, CA
Posts: 5,094
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

I'll have to try the S1 on a submix. I find that it lowers the center-panned instruments (especially lead vocal) too much when used on a Master fader.

I guess it would work well on a stereo keyboard or other stereo sample track? How about drum overheads: does it work well there?
__________________
Larry

PTLE8/002r;OS 10.6.4 2 x 2.26Ghz quadcore,6GB RAM, Waves Platinum, many other plugins...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-18-2002, 07:24 PM
Doc Doc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,063
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

SoundWrangler,
Totally agree with you [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Anything where losing a little of the centre image level or a drop in mono level doesn't matter is my general rule. In fact, once again, I find these characteristics to be quite desirable at times. It allows for more instruments to have more separation in stereo and less clutter in mono.
One thing I haven't tried yet is using both stereo overheads and stereo room mics on drums and applying something like an S1 to the room mics. That way you'd get the accuracy of the overheads with the width of the S1'd room mics.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-18-2002, 08:46 PM
Ben Jenssen's Avatar
Ben Jenssen Ben Jenssen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oslo
Posts: 3,061
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

It all comes down to the room, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-19-2002, 01:07 AM
SoundWrangler SoundWrangler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 373
Default Re: Wide stereo image.

No, I wouldn't generally suggest it on drum overheads. It's great on synth pads, etc.; I sometimes use it if I have multiple strumming acc gtr parts, certain backing vocal parts espec. where they're doubled & spread across in stereo.

Once case where I DO often apply a little taste of this stereo "enhancement" to entire stereo mixes is when creating sound FX textures & music loops for computer playback (CD-ROMs, etc.).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wide Stereo Tracks to M/S ? for mono Compat mixes? SuperReverb Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 1 11-15-2010 05:11 PM
Stereo Image! MetalDrmr 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 2 03-15-2008 08:51 PM
Stereo Image? Oroz 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 11 09-29-2005 03:33 PM
wide stereo distorted guitar tips...give 'em up Allen Tucker 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 11 07-30-2005 07:39 PM
How to wide a stereo image Riccardo Corbari Tips & Tricks 22 02-17-2005 01:17 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:22 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com