Film Scoring with PTLE...here you go again!

[The Mighty Burner]

Hello PTer's,

Hopefully you guys can help me. I've have a feature length movie soundtrack coming up next week, and I have been doing extensive research on the DUC (and elsewhere) regarding some of the issues I will have to deal with, but some of the information I've gotten is contridictory. I need clarification!

Here's the deal: I've asked my client to deliver the movie to me as a quicktime movie file with visible TC window burn (I do not have a VTR or Midi Timepiece). I could potentially be doing all kinds of post work, like songs, backround music, cues, and foley, so I may create sounds that are timed against action or edits in the film. Therefore, I know I need to be clear on sync and TC issues/workarounds.

Here is how I understand things (from researching the DUC):

CPU Issues - I can import the quicktime movie into PTLE and view it (in a quicktime window) as I multitrack against it. This will tax the CPU, but that can be relieved somewhat by hiding the movie track and displaying the movie on a 2nd monitor (I have ordered a Radeon 9000 card and a 17" CRT). This seems pretty straightforward.

TC issues - Although PTLE does not have a SMPTE timeline, I can use the TC window burn for positional reference and approximate my position on the millisecond based ruler in PT (33ms being approximately 1 frame). In addition, I can load a TDM created session to enable a bug in LE that will allow me to nudge in frames. What I am unclear about is how to line up the beginning of my tracks to coincide with the SMPTE burn window. Do I just start right from the top of my session? What if I get the movie without the TC window? Then what do I do?

Sync issues - This is a biggie, because it is a feature length movie, and I am concerned about drift. I had assumed that since the quicktime movie was playing back from within PTLE, that quicktime would sync against the same clock that PTLE is using, whether it be internal or external. I happen to be clocking my 001 from a Lucid A/D converter via SPDIF/Lightpipe. Since I am not using an external VTR, I assume I do not need a blackburst generator? This is where is gets unclear, because a Sweetwater post-production feller told me that I cannot avoid drift unless I have PTLE chase an external VTR and feed both the VTR and the 001 blackburst, and convert the SMPTE TC from the VTR into MTC using a digital timepiece. This contridicts my thinking and research, so I'm confused....if quicktime movie isn't clocking to the same sync source as PTLE, what is it clocking to? What is the workaround? Sweetwater also suggested that I purchase Logic because it does have a SMPTE timeline. $600.00 bucks for a timeline?

So can anyone help me to clarify these issues and get me on track? The project is virtually "no-budget", so I don't want to invest in a timepiece, blackburst generator, and VTR rental. IS it actually possible for me to do this project in PTLE?!?

Any comments, suggestions, clarifications....anything....is very, very much appreciated!

Thanks,

[Freeheel]

Hi Burner, the TDM session is a must for you - And you set the beginning of the time code in the "session set up " window. Using the absolute time ruler doesn't really work because you need some space at the beginning of the session for your 2 pop (make sure your window burn has a 2 pop) and usually reference tone.

In terms of your other question about long term sync, you should work in reels (a 90 min movie is usually 5 reels of approx 20 min each. Make sure the Quicktimes are conformed properly (I don't know exactly what this means, to be perfectly honest, but it seems to be the magic statement to say to get a properly working Quicktime)

In terms of needing blackburst etc, I would say that you don't - to the best of my knowledge the clocks are the same (QT and PT) although I have read some posts where people did have strange drift problems. There was a sort of consensus that this was due to Quicktimes that weren't conformed properly.

Anyway there are probably other people with more experience in this subject than me who can post their opinions, I've posted two 15 min films on my PTLE rig at home (and done other feature lengths on TDM) and I had no sync problems taking them in to be mixed on a TDM mix stage.

[The Mighty Burner]

Thanks for the comments Freewheel...they are very helpful. I located and downloaded the TC template, but I have yet to try it. I have some more questions though (of course!)...

What exactly is a "2 pop"? I've heard this term before, but I'm not exactly sure what it is and what it's purpose is....and to think that I actually make a living as a video engineer...go figure! I've been telling the boss I need some post production exposure.....

how exactly should I request the footage? Like this?

QT movie format at highest resolution with TC window burn in, using sorenson (?) compression. (My client is cutting on FCP); 2-pop; Frame rate indication; 20min files; header with bars and tone.

Even more questions:

How would I deal with overlaps of the 20 min sections?

How should I deliver the soundtrack? Not sure how to deal with this....as a stereo mix? As a quicktime movie?

One last thing...will the Radeon 9000 card that enables me to run a second monitor - will that alleviate strain on my CPU during the session?

Thanks again for the guidance....much appreciated. Mad respect, yo.

Man...I need some coffee.

[DIGIDUDE26]

Well bro........this is where I have enjoyed working with this kind of stuff using Final Cut Pro 3. for doing all the sync work........record your foley and sounds using PT's , this will give you the time stamp for sync needed later. Then import all your sounds in a bin in FPC 3 and just sync it all together in a program that is designed for thiis purpose. I know it seems like doing the same thing but in reverse, but I have found it a lot easier working with the video/audio thing like this.........whatever u end up doing............good luck.

[Mr T]

If that can help, I've worked (and still do) on all kind of movies on the PTLE/001 at home. From 30sec ads to 52 minutes documentaries. And I've NEVER experienced any "drift" issues. Just make sure the movie is delivered with a "picture"pop (sorry I'm french, don't know what the exact word is)-> ask the editor to put one frame of white picture or bars (whatever is short and easy to spot) before beginning of the movie (in here we work with 25 fr/sec, so the pop must be 2 sec before beginning of the programm... I mean, 1 sec could do but 2sec, 50 frames, is how everyone does it). If sound is delivered along (sounds recorded on field), make sure to ask the editor to also put a one frame pop (usually a one frame piece of 1KHz tone) at the very same place he puts the one frame of "picture" pop...
Those two pops (sound an picture) will ensure you were the movie exactly begins (this might sound obvious in case of a movie beginning with a "cut", but it can be less obvious if it starts with a "picture fade in" or if starts on a black picture, it happens).
When you'll be done with your work, all you'll have to do is layback the result on DAT, CD or whatever with the sound pop so that your mix can be sync with the picture.

As far as movie format is concerned, make sure it's not an MPEG file. That's a classic. The file appears with a .mov extension name, you think it's "normal" QT file but it's not, it's MPEG and that sucks... this will slow down your CPU to the point where you can't work properly... Cinepak is OK, so is Sorenson. I personnaly generally ask for a DV tape that I capture using a DV cam in IMovie. I'm doing this because IMovie can export a movie with virtually no compression (Full DV). Thsi is what your CPU likes: no compression or a really low one. The more the movie is compressed the harder it gets on your CPU. That might sounds weird but is the reality (a compressed movie has to be "decompressed" in real time by the CPU).

Now, for the second monitor, it won't really help your CPU (which will still be in charge of displaying the movie->only a guenuine video card displaying the movie on an external TV set or video monitor would help) but one thing is sure: it's almost impossible to work with only one monitor. Just imagine having a movie window, the edit window, maybe the mix window and a plug opened at the same time on one monitor and you'll get the picture!...

You'll have to deliver the sound alone (no QT movie-> the movie you'll be working on is not "broadcast" quality->useless)... On what?... Just ask the production:can be DAT, CD (in those two cases->stereo interleaved, 48KHz, 16 bits) or a data file (if it has to be synced to the picture using "soft" tools such as AVID,FCP...=>multiple mono, 48KHz, 16 bits).

I don't know what the lentgh of the movie will be... If it's more than one hour long, you indeed might want to split it in two (or more if you intend to have a lot of tracks and plugs). Just keep some "handles" (a few seconds) at the overlaping points so that you can later easily put all the pieces together.

Hope that helped. Sorry for the bad english.

[Freeheel]

When you do your final mix, you will have everything in one session (answer to your overlap question) - When actually doing your editing use the reels (unless your computer can handle a 90 min Quicktime, I don't think mine can) and then collapse the sessions for the mix.

For delivery, ask the post supervisor, or the producer, this is a question that you do not have to be afraid to ask -- it's just information, not an admission that you don't know something. Is the show in 5.1? Do they want mix stems? These factors affect how you will deliver your work and in what format.

The 2 pop is one frame of tone at -20db, 2 seconds before first frame of picture as Mr T stated. For most North american stuff there will be a number "2" on this frame as an image. This can be part of the classic film countdown 5,4,3..... or it might be all by itself. Another good thing to ask for is a tail pop, which is a pop after the end of the film matched with some obvious image. This way you can check sync at beginning and end of your reels (or entire film)
Good luck

[Firewire]

Get the QT movie as DV NTSC.Use Protools 6 and buy yourself a canopus advc100. With this setup you can play full motion full rez to your tv with very little cpu load. Put the movie on a firewire drive so that is not on the same drive as audio files. You're good to go. It works great! I've posted a Movie of the Week and many 1 hour docs. There is NO drift. I deliver 8 track stem mixes on DA88 tape from Digi 001 via optical. That works great too!
Good luck.

[CCash]

Are you doing the full mix? If so, I'm in the same boat you are. You may want to request the "unadulterated files" of the production audio... In other words, they probably loaded their dailes (or "rushes") into Final Cut Pro (with audio) from DV, did their editing, trimmed the fat, and they now have a rough mix (temp mix or "dub" or "guide track").

If they just spit out the production audio as one or a few stereo audio tracks, you have no "handle" on the cuts. You are bound to the audio cuts they made. If you need extra audio on either side of the cut for a smooth transition, you won't have it. If you ARE editing and mixing the dialog, ambiences, etc (anything from the production sound), then request that they export an audio OMF, if they have version 2.0 or higher of FCP. In FCP you can specify the handle (5 seconds for example... the extra audio on either side of their original cut). Using OMF with ProTools, or better yet using Digi Translater, you can automatically reassemble the audio for each track on the Pro Tools timeline. Export at 48k.

As long as they exported the movie for you using the same in and out points as they did for the audio, Pro Tools' will automatically sync (line-up) the movie with the audio.

Make sure you work at the same frame rate... and create your session using the TC template if possible (and DON'T change the Counter display or Minutes or Bars/Beats, because you'll lose the TC display). The Sub Counter will at least tell you where you are parked on a frame, so if they give you a timecode window burn, you can at least verify your sync is good and will be helpful for spotting FX too.

Hmmm, man, there are so many things. I'm curious about the video too. I'm thinking of a Radeon card, but we'll still probably have just as much strain on the CPU if not more. PT6> DV format video > Canopus is a viable option as mentioned above, but I'm not going there.

Ask for an Academy Leader at the head of the reel if possible (that's the 6,5,4,3.. countdown) and yes, ask them to put a 1 frame, 1k "pop" at 2 seconds before the FFOP (first frame of picture, which should fall at either 1 hour exactly, or at 1 hour 8 seconds, depending on how they want to work... these are two standards). The 2-pop is the "down and dirty" sync method and very, very useful. Tail pops are great too.

Here are links that may be helpful:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage..._protools.html
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=36581&SaveKCWindowURL=http%3A% 2F%2Fkbase.info.apple.c om%2Fcgi-bin%2FWebObjects%2Fkbase.woa%2Fwa%2FSaveKCToHomePa ge&searchMode=Assisted&kbhost=kbase.info. apple.com&showButton=false&randomValue=100&showSur vey=false&sessionID=anonymous|169672547
http://www.editorsguild.com/newslett...quicktime.html

Good luck,
Curt

[CCash]

Originally posted by Mr T:
As far as movie format is concerned, make sure it's not an MPEG file. That's a classic. The file appears with a .mov extension name, you think it's "normal" QT file but it's not, it's MPEG and that sucks... this will slow down your CPU to the point where you can't work properly... Cinepak is OK, so is Sorenson. I personnaly generally ask for... no compression (Full DV). Thsi is what your CPU likes: no compression or a really low one. The more the movie is compressed the harder it gets on your CPU. That might sounds weird but is the reality (a compressed movie has to be "decompressed" in real time by the CPU).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So T - That's a surprise. I would have never thought that. So if I can get straight-up DV from Final Cut Pro, that is your suggestion?

Also, Mighty Burner - you can only have one QT movie loaded in ProTools at a time, so you'll need to "spot" the video for each reel or section, unless you make each reel its own session. Another place where Timecode Burn comes in handy.
I'd create a "dummy session" for each reel with just the movie track, spot the reel, then later, just import the movie track into the current session. The old QT movie will be replaced by the new one. And definitely don't display the movie track in frames. Set it to Blocks and just hide it.