Is there any sound degradation when turning down a master fader?

[critictalk]

Originally Posted by Carl Kolchak

Well you'd probably want to have the record track (FMix) input set to whatever bus your "monitoring" aux track is routed out to.

If you just have it set to the bus you'd named "master bus", you're not printing a true representation of what you're monitoring through that aux track, especially if there are any plug-ins or automation on it.

Other than that potential snafu, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing - provided you are also aware that the limiter insert on the master track is post fader.

I don't insert any plugin on the AUX track, it is just used for monitoring.
What will I lost if I set the FMix track input to the 'master bus'? I think it is the same

DX/MX/FX ->(output)Master Bus->Master Fader(Master Bus)->(Input, Record track)Master Bus

[groundcontrol]

Originally Posted by CME

That is an interesting approach. However you may be going a bit far the other way. And you may want to consider your gain staging a bit.

The way I do it is to try and keep all the faders at zero and have a good sounding mix with headroom in the master fader. You have the best fader resolution between about -6 and +6. Or somewhere around there. In others words small movements equal small changes. Not big changes as your current technique does.

Then to tweak the mix I make those small changes in fader level. They don't stay at 0. It should just sound like a decent rough mix with headroom on the master buss to push solos and what not out in front.

As stated above, optimizing gain staging is still relevant itb, but is/was critical mixing on a console.

An important first step, which the op seems to have misunderstood, is the need to properly gain stage the "console" chanel input. To do so, you'd usually first trim (up/down as needed) the line input (with the source switched to tape) for each channel with the fader at Unity (0dB) to maximize fader resolution and headroom.

[Carl Kolchak]

Originally Posted by critictalk

I don't insert any plugin on the AUX track, it is just used for monitoring.
What will I lost if I set the FMix track input to the 'master bus'? I think it is the same

DX/MX/FX ->(output)Master Bus->Master Fader(Master Bus)->(Input, Record track)Master Bus

In the specific scenario you are describing, that would not cause any problems - provided the fader on the "monitoring" Aux track is in the default 0dB position.

To get a better idea of how it can trip people up, read this post (and the few that follow it).

[scrnplyr]

To get a better idea of how it can trip people up, read this post (and the few that follow it)

Carl, the link led to a great discussion on buss/aux/input/output - thanks for that. Any update on the PT 11 offline bounce issues?

[mikeyman]

Originally Posted by CME

One thing to consider is where in the chain the master fader is. In pro tools it's pre insert. So that can create some issues when using it to fade out. Especially if you're running any kind of compression/limiting on the master fader.

There are some differences between TDM and native (and I assume HDx is like native). On a TDM system if you clip the master fader, the only way to truly fix it is to lower the track levels. On a native system you can bring down the master fader as need be. But keep in mind it's a pre-insert fader as noted before. And it's always best to keep from clipping anywhere in the chain. But if there's just one spot in a song pulling the master fader a little can be simpler.

And this is all to do with actual clipping. I believe moving the master fader will do little to hurt the resolution. Especially on small adjustments.

That's why you should use this setup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsN9FouyZIc

[Kris75]

Proper gain staging is critical.

In the 24 bit audio land if you were to lower the master fader down you "could" lose resolution. All you need to do is a simple null test to hear it.

However in the 32 bit audio land it is an issue because you will still clip your convertors. Even though 32 bit audio is almost impossible to clip and there are no rounding errors, DA convertors still have an optimal operating level.

It drives me crazy how people think that just because the file they are mixing is 32 bit float that they are immune to gain staging

Even the best 24 bit converter is 20 bits at best in reality! Not sure about you, but clipping the output is always bad.

Back to the OP's question, in the 32 bit float land, turning the master fader down will pass the null test, however I still feel as though it's a bad practice unless you only need a db or 2 of change.

A good rule of thumb is to record everything to a max peak between -12 to -3. Then keep all faders below unity. Unless you don't follow the unity gain through the plug in chain rule, your mix will sit at about -6dbfs and life will be good.

[DonaldM]

Maybe this is the old fashioned way, but like others have said, I too was taught in the old analog world, leave the master bus at unity (which back in the day made wonder why they bothered to even have a fader on the master bus at all ), then mix all the parts to -6 or so. So, even on PT, I tend to stick with that. I use a lot of submixes, so if I find my mix a bit hot, I find I can group the sub-mixes and just pull them back a bit to get where I want it to be. Most of the time that seems to work. But once in a while I'll "cheat" and nudge the master bus fader down a db or so if I need a bit more room. But it always feels lazy to me when I do that!

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by DonaldM

Maybe this is the old fashioned way, but like others have said, I too was taught in the old analog world, leave the master bus at unity (which back in the day made wonder why they bothered to even have a fader on the master bus at all ), then mix all the parts to -6 or so. So, even on PT, I tend to stick with that. I use a lot of submixes, so if I find my mix a bit hot, I find I can group the sub-mixes and just pull them back a bit to get where I want it to be. Most of the time that seems to work. But once in a while I'll "cheat" and nudge the master bus fader down a db or so if I need a bit more room. But it always feels lazy to me when I do that!

That is exactly what I'm doing as well. Submixes rule the real mix, which I always keep between -6..-15 because that's hot enough and safe enough.

That said; nowadays I tend to do submixes using VCA's instead of AUX's but still the same principle holds.

[YYR123]

Originally Posted by JFreak

That said; nowadays I tend to do submixes using VCA's instead of AUX's but still the same principle holds.

DCA's