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  #6441  
Old 09-09-2016, 07:55 PM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

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Originally Posted by atticmike View Post
What's even worse is that Broadwell has lower scores than Haswell architecture...

I'd like to see reliable numbers, how well they perform versus Apple's 12-core Mac Pro, so I can make my choice.
So you can make your choice between a 3+ year old system (2 generations behind) that is over twice the price (closer to 3x's the price) or a modern system that benchmark testing and others will tell you is just as fast?? I don't really buy into it when people say that. I have replaced lots of 12 core 2/3/4 gen MP's and completely smoked them on top of being a smoother and more responsive system from the 5xxx series. Then giving benefits of Sata 3, Thunderbolt, Usb 3, and more. Just look up the the series of MP you want to compare and find the processor lines available in them to compare.

There is a multitude of different reasonings for the test results. First, by looking at your screen capture, the 3400Ghz is the base operating frequency of that processor. What does that mean?? It means those systems probably had speed stepping enabled. The clock speed is taken before the CPU kicks in into turbo when the test starts. The system with higher clock probably has speed stepping disabled and the CPU running at 100%. When the testing starts, they both go to 100%, hence the similar results.

Then the Broadwell E is brand new. It is supported in the previous x99 boards. The new x99 boards have a secondary "Turbo" driver (Intel based Turbo boost max 3.0) to push the CPU even further from the motherboards bios "turbo" setting. I am not sure how the first gen x99 boards will handle this or if they can do it when you install a new 6xxx series processor in it. This can also greatly affect the results. A 6800k running a 4Ghz is probably on an old board for example at stock settings. This is another variable on the 6xxx series tests.

As far as Geekbench scores between the 2: I don't have time to analyze them now. You also have to consider you have a processor that users have had a year and half to learn how to dial in and OC, compared to a processor that just hit the market. Another thing to realize is everytime someone takes a test, it's logged. You can have the same person with 15 tests on there. So until the base grows it's a bit hard to find the average, though you can see on the 6800k, those numbers are pretty typical.

as I mentioned already, in PT performance, it's not close. The 6xxx series absolutely spanks the 5xxx. I have built lots of 5xxx series and probably 10 plus 6xxx series already with 2 more to start this week. These posts are a bit time consuming, though I am trying to help. It's just rather difficult to break everything down all the time. I have some PT based test I run on every system to verify its running up to what I consider "normal", and easy for me to bench mark them in PT performance.

So please understand, I am not steering you wrong when I throw statements out there saying "go with this, it's better performance" it's just easier than typing this stuff out all the time. I might do a post on my website soon comparing a bunch of interfaces and some comparison tests for users to try as well. I will be doing them on a Broadwell E, just not sure if it will be the 6 or 10 core. I will say, the 5xxx to the 6xxx is the largest jump in power from a tock to a tick (Intels design method) I have ever seen. I say that as someone who has built multiple systems of every i7 incarnation except the 2xxx which I skipped completely. The 6xxx is the first generation to make me want to upgrade my personal PT system which is still a 3930k.
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  #6442  
Old 09-09-2016, 10:29 PM
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YYR123 YYR123 is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

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I might do a post on my website soon comparing a bunch of interfaces and some comparison tests for users to try as well. I will be doing them on a Broadwell E, just not sure if it will be the 6 or 10 core. I will say, the 5xxx to the 6xxx is the largest jump in power from a tock to a tick (Intels design method) I have ever seen.



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  #6443  
Old 09-10-2016, 04:16 AM
CME CME is offline
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Default i7 Builds - Specs and Results

Guitardom, which 6xxx series are you talking about? The regular i7 or the socket 2011 e-series? I've always wanted to build a system based on one of those e-series chips. But IMO they're more like hot rod Xeons than "regular" i7's. I have no doubt they can outperform my 2009 Mac Pro. Which currently has dual 2.66 ghz 6-core CPUs. But how would an i7-6700k compare?

And to the weird outlier geek bench results you find. There's a simple answer. They're normally hackintosh results. You can use any hardware and call it whatever model of Mac you want. So you could build an i3 based rig and call it a Mac Pro if you wanted. It would then show up in geek bench as a Mac Pro.
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  #6444  
Old 09-10-2016, 08:41 AM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

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Originally Posted by CME View Post
Guitardom, which 6xxx series are you talking about? The regular i7 or the socket 2011 e-series? I've always wanted to build a system based on one of those e-series chips. But IMO they're more like hot rod Xeons than "regular" i7's. I have no doubt they can outperform my 2009 Mac Pro. Which currently has dual 2.66 ghz 6-core CPUs. But how would an i7-6700k compare?

And to the weird outlier geek bench results you find. There's a simple answer. They're normally hackintosh results. You can use any hardware and call it whatever model of Mac you want. So you could build an i3 based rig and call it a Mac Pro if you wanted. It would then show up in geek bench as a Mac Pro.
Hey,
You would have to look into the "tick tock" method I mentioned earlier to understand the development cycles to understand the i7 development cycles better. So for the 6xxx series, the current Skylakes are tock, which are the 4 cores, and the Broadwell E's are tick, which are the 6-8-10 core. Neither of these (Skylake or Broadwell E) have anymore common traits with the Xeon than the other except maybe the E's don't have integrated video, BUT the E's are built for pure performance which is the opposite of the Xeons.

As crazy as it is, the dual 6 core x5650 in your 09 is really not much, if any faster than a 4 core 6700k. This has to do with almost doubling the clock speeds as well as the other generational improvements. If someone is comfortable with even minor OC'ing, they could be quite a bit more powerful than your 12 core. Looking at identical benchmarking tests, in many cases the 4 core is more powerful.

I explained his "outlier" results above. he was confused by the clock speed differences yet same results. It has to do with Speed Stepping and C-states. If you want legit comparisons with Mac Pro's, you have to get the actual processor in the system you are wanting to check. So don't check MP 3.1, you have to check the actual processor so, x5650, or e5 2697 v2, for examples of Mac CPU's.
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  #6445  
Old 09-10-2016, 09:46 AM
CME CME is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10337/...up-to-10-cores

"Intel has recently released the Broadwell-EP based Xeon E5-2600 v4 processors, running up to 22 cores, and the smaller silicon die used for the 10-core parts has today filtered down to the prosumer and high-end desktop (HEDT) markets in four different parts, making up the Core i7 6800 and 6900 series. For today's review we'll be taking a look at all four."

The socket 2011 i7's are basically xeons, without support for dual cpus, registered ram, and unlocked for over clocking. So basically hot rodded xeons. They may share the same underlying micro architecture and manufacturing process (broadwell, sky lake, Kaby lake, etc.) but they def have more in common with xeons than their 4-core i7's cousins.

As shown this x99 mobo is compatible with either broadwell e (i7 68xx/69xx) or broadwell e5 xeons.

http://www.gigabyte.us/support-downl....aspx?pid=5221

That said I just haven't kept up with how far the intel procs have come power wise. Once metric halo finally release their USB interface card, I plan on switching to windows. And will build a new rig then. Was just checking to see where my 2009 Mac Pro compared to what's available. I've always planned on building a rig around the e-series procs. Just looked, and it appears the next generation are going to use a new socket. So I'll probably wait on that also before building a rig. Unless the deals on the 2011 based rigs are just too good to pass up.
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  #6446  
Old 09-10-2016, 11:00 AM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by CME View Post
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10337/...up-to-10-cores

"Intel has recently released the Broadwell-EP based Xeon E5-2600 v4 processors, running up to 22 cores, and the smaller silicon die used for the 10-core parts has today filtered down to the prosumer and high-end desktop (HEDT) markets in four different parts, making up the Core i7 6800 and 6900 series. For today's review we'll be taking a look at all four."

The socket 2011 i7's are basically xeons, without support for dual cpus, registered ram, and unlocked for over clocking. So basically hot rodded xeons. They may share the same underlying micro architecture and manufacturing process (broadwell, sky lake, Kaby lake, etc.) but they def have more in common with xeons than their 4-core i7's cousins.

As shown this x99 mobo is compatible with either broadwell e (i7 68xx/69xx) or broadwell e5 xeons.

http://www.gigabyte.us/support-downl....aspx?pid=5221

That said I just haven't kept up with how far the intel procs have come power wise. Once metric halo finally release their USB interface card, I plan on switching to windows. And will build a new rig then. Was just checking to see where my 2009 Mac Pro compared to what's available. I've always planned on building a rig around the e-series procs. Just looked, and it appears the next generation are going to use a new socket. So I'll probably wait on that also before building a rig. Unless the deals on the 2011 based rigs are just too good to pass up.
Of course they share the same die as they have always been the same socket, but share none of the actual traits that separate Xeon from any i7 series and are they are clocked slower.... Thats my point. Most motherboard that supports the i7 E's will support the Xeon as they are the same socket, but you will lose all the unique Xeon features without a Xeon specific board. The unique attributes of the Xeon that makes it server class, is not present in the E series processors. The cache sizes are different, Ecc support, Vpro Technology support, the amount of max supported ram, Multi CPU, and more.

The Broadwell E's have only been out for a couple months. You are looking at over a year wait for a new socket. The other variable is Intel have already announced they are breaking the Tick Tock development cycle. They new announced i7 (Kabylake) is just a subtle upgrade from the Skylake, its far below the normal generational improvements. In other words, the next gen E processors are going to be of very little upgrade.
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Last edited by guitardom; 09-10-2016 at 01:17 PM.
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  #6447  
Old 09-10-2016, 11:47 AM
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

We may just have to agree to disagree, but the Broadwell E5-v4 Xeons are the same generation as the Broadwell-E i7-6800/6900. The Xeon/HEDT chips are always a generation behind the Desktop chips. Desktop enthusiasts get the newest process. Intel gets to make sure it's reliable, and they can reduce manufacturing issues before moving it to the Xeons. Then they take out/turn off the enterprise features and make the HEDT chips. Also from my reading it looks like the Xeon's will skip Kaby Lake. There will be Sandy lake versions next, with the socket change, and then in 2018 they'll go with cannonlake. Which desktop users will get next year.

And I'm in no hurry to build a new rig. My current one is doing just fine. :) but I'm always interested in what's out there and what's coming up. So I will wait until the next generation socket. My plan has been to buy the mid level HEDT chip. Then wait until prices drop on the high end chip and/or the next generation comes out. While also keeping an eye on Xeons. You might not be able to overclock them, but when you have 18+ cores, I don't think that would matter as much.
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  #6448  
Old 09-10-2016, 11:55 AM
atticmike atticmike is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

So, the i7 broadwell 6-core is as fast as the 12 core trashcan? At least that's what I've been able to gather...

Also, what is the second generation X99 mainboard you've talked about? This?

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-2011-3-M...rds=asus%2Bx99

And what's the difference between the A, A USB 3.1 (obviously 3.1 but can't they all do 3.1?), deluxe (looks like accessories such as fast ssd), and Pro?

Is this ram good? Will i benefit from 3000 Hz? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0134EVVO2..._t2_B018GK2G9S

Whereas I've come across a II x99? https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/X99-A-II/ Is this more recent than the x99 mentioned above?
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  #6449  
Old 09-10-2016, 01:12 PM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

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We may just have to agree to disagree, but the Broadwell E5-v4 Xeons are the same generation as the Broadwell-E i7-6800/6900. The Xeon/HEDT chips are always a generation behind the Desktop chips. Desktop enthusiasts get the newest process. Intel gets to make sure it's reliable, and they can reduce manufacturing issues before moving it to the Xeons. Then they take out/turn off the enterprise features and make the HEDT chips. Also from my reading it looks like the Xeon's will skip Kaby Lake. There will be Sandy lake versions next, with the socket change, and then in 2018 they'll go with cannonlake. Which desktop users will get next year.

And I'm in no hurry to build a new rig. My current one is doing just fine. :) but I'm always interested in what's out there and what's coming up. So I will wait until the next generation socket. My plan has been to buy the mid level HEDT chip. Then wait until prices drop on the high end chip and/or the next generation comes out. While also keeping an eye on Xeons. You might not be able to overclock them, but when you have 18+ cores, I don't think that would matter as much.
Never said anything about the being or not being the same gen, They just were not available yet last time I had looked for them.

as far a being "behind", again, the Tick Tock development model I mentioned explains what is going on here. Its a new Microarchitecture with the Tock, and improving, modyfying, and shrinking the die size on the Tick (E series). They are not actually a generation behind, its more of a hybrid and moving the technology down to the next silicon die size and getting the improved technology along with the reduced heat/less power need gains.

KabyLake is the first processor leaving this development cycle and is bad for us imo. It has been a wonderful method to move us forward. They are supposed to be doing 3 development cycles now with a CPU instead of 2 which is why they are probably skipping the next gen Xeons. Its fairly common for intel to veer off its intended path as things get closer. So it will be interesting to see where they go in the next couple years.

I have been running my 3930k for 4 years this November and they were introduced in 2011. This new line is the first time I have thought "I have to upgrade". Its just not even comparable anymore with how smooth these are along with the huge power increase. Will be testing a new 10 core later today.
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  #6450  
Old 09-10-2016, 02:00 PM
CME CME is offline
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Default Re: i7 Builds - Specs and Results

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadw...22_.2814_nm.29



On January 5, 2015, 17 additional Broadwell laptop CPUs were launched for the Celeron, Pentium and Core i3, i5 and i7 series.[52]
On March 31, 2016, Intel officially launched 14 nm Broadwell-EP Xeon E5 V4 CPUs.[53]
On May 30, 2016, Intel officially launched 14 nm Broadwell-E Core i7 69xx/68xx processor family.


The HEDT are the last to be released of the families. And I understand the tick-tock, and the new tick-tock-refine. It's because Intel is having issues getting down to and below the 10 nM process. From what I've read they're looking into materials other than silicon going forward as they are reaching the limits of what's possible with that material.

And it's good to hear that they've made those kind of strides. I knew the socket 2011 chips had been a big improvement over the 1366 chips like in my mac pro. And if you're saying the new ones are already a big jump over the early ones, a new system will be fun. But at the same time my current rig isn't straining. So that and needing to wait on metric halo means I'm not going to do this anytime soon. But I will keep a closer eye on whats available. Probably spring for a PCIe SSD OS drive. I've been happy with my sata 3 ssd's, but imagine that alone is quite the upgrade. :)
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