Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > General Discussion & Off Topic > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-19-2006, 04:03 PM
matwell matwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 21
Default Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Disclaimer: I am a loyal Digidesign supporter. I have evangelized Pro Tools for many years, to many different studios and clients. I own a Digi 002R and an Mbox. I regularly do session work on Pro Tools HD systems in studios all over Los Angeles, and many other countries/cities.

With the release of Pro Tools LE 7.1, Digidesign has hit a nerve that has been bothering me ever since the release of Pro Tools LE. Namely, the intentional handicapping of PTLE. Digidesign took Pro Tools HD, stripped out many of the shortcuts and features, imposed a track count limit, removed all timecode functionality, and many other operations. Over the past few years, they have gradually started trickling some of these features back into PTLE.

However, DV Toolkit 1 was the start of something bad. They bundled DINR, VocAlign and DigiTranslator 2.0 together with timecode functionality for $1,000! Now, I don't know about other PTLE users, but I didn't have a daily need for DINR, VocAlign or DigiTranslator. What I *do* use regularly, for post/video/film is timecode. So, with a big project coming up that I knew I would *have* to have timecode functionality for, I purchased DV Toolkit 1... a $1,000 timecode ruler!

Now, with PTLE 7.1, Digidesign has said that DV Toolkit 1 will not work anymore and I have to pay an additional $295 to get it to work... again. Of course, with the upgrade comes an increased track count (we'll get to that in a minute) and some bundled plug-ins, which *is* a nice package taken all together.

However, Digi also introduced the Music Production Toolkit, which is a nice bundle, but contains some of the same features as DV Toolkit 2. There is some crossover of features, such as 48 tracks, TL Space Native and the MP3 Option. So, customers who purchase *both* toolkits are really spending more than they should. I just happen to be one of those prospective customers.

I really need the functionality provided in both Toolkits. I wrote to Digidesign Customer Service, asking them if there would be some type of "package price" for both Toolkits, since there was some redundancy between the two. Plus, I was upgrading from DV Toolkit 1, and I already have DINR, etc. I just want my timecode to keep working!

Digi CS basically said we think our prices are fair and no one else has asked for a bundle price for both so, thank you, but sorry.

Digidesign knows what they are doing. They know that they have left out features from PTLE, and are gradually charging users to put them back in. Because Pro Tools is the "standard" these days, they know most studios and musicians need to be compatible. The sad thing is, they are right, but they are abusing their power with this new approach to PTLE.

Digital Performer and Logic (and others) are fully featured sequencers, with timecode functionality and a track count only dependent on your CPU and hard drive. They will also work directly on the Mac's built-in audio hardware, very useful for working with a laptop while travelling. By comparison, PTLE requires you to use Digi hardware, and makes you pay extra for timecode and a higher track count. To me, this hurts Digidesign (and their customers) more than helps.

My point (and I do have one) is this: Digidesign must unlock PTLE, restoring the full functionality of the Pro Tools HD software. Do they honestly think that by limiting PTLE, they will frustrate users enough to motivate them into upgrading to a PT HD system?! For me, it's exactly the opposite. The more they pull these kind of tricks, the more it pushes me to look elsewhere. The competition, by the way, is getting better and better.

So, I propose this: Speak out, contact Digidesign, let your frustration be known! Unlock Pro Tools LE and restore the full functionality of the software!

Sincerely,
Michael Atwell
__________________
PM Quad G5; PB 17" 1.5GHz; Digi 002R; Mbox; PTLE 7; DP 4.61; MachFive; NI Komplete 2; EWQLSO Gold; MemoryMoog Plus
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-19-2006, 04:31 PM
superpenguin79 superpenguin79 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,783
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

dude.... I am sorry to say... 1. this will never happen because Digi has levels of products to make recording available to all levels of users and they have to strip something to make this happen. 2. honestly not everyone cares about some of the functionality that has been stripped out of LE and would not have a clue what is missing unless they needed it. Most average users out there would be burdened with questions of what to do with LE when they first get it, so Digi is making it simple to give them the options that they want which is mainly to record.

HD is just that... it is the next level of technology and next level of audio functionality for those who already know what they are doing and mainly want to go commercial with it. Truthfully there is no other reason to go HD unless you are trying to make money with your own music/recordings. The prices of the packages do not warrant getting an HD package just for fun and to record your band... that is what the 002 and Mbox lines are for... and for the people making their first demos, there is where the M-audio lines come in...

no offense, but bottom line is if you want HD, you pay for HD, if you want LE, you pay for LE...etc.. In your case where you need both packages, honestly why beat around the bush? By the time you invest into the packages that you need on the toolkits, you could have bought an HD rig!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-19-2006, 05:27 PM
matwell matwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 21
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Quote:
dude.... I am sorry to say... 1. this will never happen because Digi has levels of products to make recording available to all levels of users and they have to strip something to make this happen.
Digidesign's competition (DP, Logic, etc.) are in the same price range as PTLE products, and they are fully featured, without handicapped functionality. This argument does not hold water.

Quote:
2. honestly not everyone cares about some of the functionality that has been stripped out of LE and would not have a clue what is missing unless they needed it. Most average users out there would be burdened with questions of what to do with LE when they first get it, so Digi is making it simple to give them the options that they want which is mainly to record.
That's what the owner's manual is for. Learn the functions you need, as you go. You are saying that PTLE was designed for the "lowest common denominator", i.e. an amateur musician recording in their bedroom. Once again, the competition, in the same price range, is fully featured.

Quote:
...no offense, but bottom line is if you want HD, you pay for HD, if you want LE, you pay for LE...etc.. In your case where you need both packages, honestly why beat around the bush? By the time you invest into the packages that you need on the toolkits, you could have bought an HD rig!
This is completely untrue!

Pro Tools LE
Digi 002R: $1,295
Music Production Toolkit: $495
DV Toolkit 2 Toolkit: $1,295
TOTAL: $3,085

~versus~

Pro Tools HD Core System
Pro Tools HD 1: $7,995 (remember, this is only the PCI card. Audio interfaces are extra.)
96 I/O: $1,995 (the cheapest 96k hardware for HD, not LE)
TOTAL: $9,990

Of course, I should have added DINR, DigiTranslator 2, MP3 Option, etc., but I think my point has been made. To get the functionality of Pro Tools HD software, you have to buy Pro Tools HD hardware. Digidesign's competition, such as DP and Logic have fully functional software, with timecode and no track count limits. Plus you get to choose your own audio interfaces.

Digidesign needs to step up here, and restore PTLE to it's full feature set.
__________________
PM Quad G5; PB 17" 1.5GHz; Digi 002R; Mbox; PTLE 7; DP 4.61; MachFive; NI Komplete 2; EWQLSO Gold; MemoryMoog Plus
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-19-2006, 06:24 PM
spkguitar's Avatar
spkguitar spkguitar is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 18,161
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Quote:
Digidesign's competition (DP, Logic, etc.) are in the same price range as PTLE products, and they are fully featured, without handicapped functionality.
So buy them and use them. Nobody is stopping you.
__________________
My Website: Pro Tools "Newbie" Help

Studio rig: Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD3R, Intel i7 920, 6GB Patriot DDR3, NVidia 8600GS, LG GGW-H20L BD-RE, Sony CRX195E1 CD-RW, 2x WD Caviar black 640GB (os swap), 1x WD caviar 320GB (sessions), 1x Maxtor 120GB (sessions), 1x Seagate 1TB (samples/loops), Profire2626, Command8, PT12 on OSX

Mobile Rig: 2015 MacBook Pro Retina, Apollo Twin, PT12
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-19-2006, 06:31 PM
matwell matwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 21
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Quote:
Quote:
Digidesign's competition (DP, Logic, etc.) are in the same price range as PTLE products, and they are fully featured, without handicapped functionality.
So buy them and use them. Nobody is stopping you.
I have, and I do.

However, there is no denying the need for Pro Tools compatibility. Digidesign has PTLE owners "over a barrel" and they know it. That is the root of my displeasure with Digi's attitude towards PTLE. They know that they are the gate keepers to more features in PTLE, slowly trickling out updates to make PTLE what it should have been in the first place.
__________________
PM Quad G5; PB 17" 1.5GHz; Digi 002R; Mbox; PTLE 7; DP 4.61; MachFive; NI Komplete 2; EWQLSO Gold; MemoryMoog Plus
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-20-2006, 09:24 AM
Tarktones Tarktones is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 65
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Not to seem like a dick or anything because I definitely feel what you're saying here. It is not my intent to be a jerk or start a flame war, however....

Once again: DIGI IS AN AUDIO AND DSP HARDWARE MANUFACTURER!!!! They also produce software tools to accompany their hardware.

Logic is a piece of SOFTWARE that is for sale. DP is SOFTWARE. I don't know about you, but I don't see people starting a picket line because Logic Express is "handicapped" and not as full-featured as Logic Pro. Because it's a simple thing; if you want all the features that come with the big-boy toys, you have to pay for the real thing. Does Logic or DP in and of themselves come with any hardware outside of a dongle? Do they offer any sort of audio processing hardware or AD/DA conversion? The fact of the matter is that Pro Tools HD gives you more than those programs do because it comes with the hardware to add a LOT of DSP to the system along with a full-fledged PROFESSIONAL software tool.

Logic has Pro and Express. Pro Tools has HD and LE. Pro Tools is more expensive because it includes hardware. Granted, it would be nice to have a fully functional version of Pro Tools minus the obligatory hardware. I'd also like to win the lottery. But the odds are slim in both chances. It's not like Digidesign doesn't offer the product, you just have to pay for it.

Personally I stick with Pro Tools because it's what I know and what I like. I tried out logic and just really didn't dig it. Not that I don't think it's cool and vastly more powerful for arrangers, composers and MIDIots in general, but I don't use that functionality. At this point, I don't need it to follow LTC, or VITC, clock to blackburst or anything like that. But I know that if I DO need it to do anything like that, there are options and upgrades available. If I've got clients willing to pay for that service, that means that in turn I am willing to make the required investment to provide that service.

Apple produces the computers that run Logic. But I don't see you factoring in the added cost of an Apple on the necessities list for Logic. DP is made by MOTU who make audio interfaces as well, which are not bound to the software. They treat the software as an element completely separate from the hardware. Digi sees them as one; your pres, your converters, you interface, your software and your control surface all under one name. Yes, they want to see their logo all over your studio. That's capitalism. You have the choice to go with any other program out there. If you want the features that come with and HD system, you need to pay for an HD system. LE isn't handicapped. It's Pro Tools Light Edition. You knew that when you signed up for it. It lacks certain functionality because that is the very premise of it.

Where I WILL agree with you on is a package price for the toolkits. I don't like paying for the same thing twice. Purchasing upgrades I'm okay with, but when they're forced and include overlap, I'd expect some kind of break or compensation. That sucks a bunch and I don't think it's cool at all. In fact, I agree with you quite whole-heartedly on that. I think that for that price, if all you need is timecode you can sync by spending $550 on a MOTU MIDI Timepiece AV and convert SMPTE to MTC and sync that way. Granted, I'm not too big on post so I'm not sure what issues you'd run into with it jerry-rigged like that.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-20-2006, 12:14 PM
ejwells's Avatar
ejwells ejwells is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 4,530
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

I'm starting a petition to turn my Ford Focus into a Ferrari
__________________
Pro Tools 10.3.3 | HD Native | HD I/O 8x8x8 | Mac Pro 8 Core Westmere | 24GB RAM | OSX Lion 10.7.4 | API 3124 | Chandler TG-2 | UA 4-710d | Empirical Labs Distressor EL8X | Kemper Rack |
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-20-2006, 12:57 PM
EGS's Avatar
EGS EGS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,915
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Quote:
I'm starting a petition to turn my Ford Focus into a Ferrari
Now that's funny!

I think Digi's doing a mostly fair job of pricing. Not perfect (some of the recent upgrade/toolkits with duplicate features were funky), but generally fair. I mean, you can get started with an Mbox for $500, with free plugs and 32 tracks. Need faders? Get a control surface. Need more I/O? Get a 002R. Need more software features? Get a LE toolkit or 2. Need even more I/O, SMPTE, 192Khz, and word clock? Get a HD rig. If you don't think the LE features/prices are competitive, then use something else. Actually, if you run LE on a powerful computer with lots of plugs, if can be quite...liberating. Just my 2 cents.
__________________
Desktop: PT 2020.5 / Win 10 / GIGABYTE GA-X58A-UD3R / i7 hex 3.9GHz / 32GB / Focusrite LS56
Laptop: PT 2020.5 / Win 10 / HP ProBook / i7 quad / U-PHORIA UMC1820
Legacy: PT 5 & 6 / OS9 & OSX / Mac G4 / DIGI001
Click for demo
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-20-2006, 02:15 PM
superpenguin79 superpenguin79 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,783
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Quote:

Digidesign's competition (DP, Logic, etc.) are in the same price range as PTLE products, and they are fully featured, without handicapped functionality. This argument does not hold water.

That's what the owner's manual is for. Learn the functions you need, as you go. You are saying that PTLE was designed for the "lowest common denominator", i.e. an amateur musician recording in their bedroom. Once again, the competition, in the same price range, is fully featured.

This is completely untrue!

Digidesign needs to step up here, and restore PTLE to it's full feature set.
dude, Shawn even replied and he IS the owners manual... Like the above post stated, if you are happy with other products and they give you fuller functionality, then stay with those products. Just because you bring a petition to a message board amongst folks that are already happy with their Digi rigs and try to get a quality rig for cheap by whining that functionalities that most users don't care about have been stripped out, I'm sorry to say doesn't look like you are going to get anywhere...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-20-2006, 02:52 PM
matwell matwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 21
Default Re: Petition to liberate Pro Tools LE

Quote:
... Just because you bring a petition to a message board amongst folks that are already happy with their Digi rigs and try to get a quality rig for cheap by whining that functionalities that most users don't care about have been stripped out, I'm sorry to say doesn't look like you are going to get anywhere...
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the DUC was only for happy and content Digi customers. I humbly apologize for whining about getting screwed by Digidesign. You have opened my eyes to the fact that, since Digidesign is the industry leader, they can do whatever the hell they want to their PTLE customers.

Doesn't anyone else here think that Pro Tools software should be independent of Pro Tools hardware?? (Just like *all* of Digidesign's competition?)
__________________
PM Quad G5; PB 17" 1.5GHz; Digi 002R; Mbox; PTLE 7; DP 4.61; MachFive; NI Komplete 2; EWQLSO Gold; MemoryMoog Plus
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition. Marsdy Pro Tools 10 157 10-22-2012 04:01 PM
Pro Tools 6.1 SP1 Petition Rock_Artist 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 22 08-11-2003 08:07 AM
Pro Tools 6 and AV Option - Petition! MDH25 Post - Surround - Video 12 04-19-2003 12:47 AM
Pro Tools & AV Option - Petition! MDH25 Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 22 02-20-2003 04:39 AM
Mac G4 PETITION tasdu 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 4 10-25-2000 06:32 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:21 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com