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  #1  
Old 08-11-2020, 09:55 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

Hi there,

I think there's a nasty automation bug in 20.5 can anyone confirm this:


Here's a screen capture (top track VCA assigned to the track below)

https://fil.email/dXheAVHt
pw: 20.5bug

Is this a feature? Seems like a massive bug to me or am I missing something?

Thanks!

Frank.
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Last edited by Frank Kruse; 08-11-2020 at 10:16 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2020, 01:19 PM
rhumphries rhumphries is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

I see that behavior here as well.

There are two things happening that I wouldn't expect 1) automation is being written even though "punch automation preview" hasn't been hit, and 2) the inverse of the VCA automation is being written.

I have seen the inverse automation thing before in 2019.6, although I can't recall under what exact circumstances.

I'd call it a bug. It's not a feature I'd want.
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Old 08-12-2020, 12:23 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

Thank you for looking into this! After a few more thoughts I am wondering if this is actually intended behaviour even though being super confusing visually. The audible result is essentially as if I had written a static straight line across while at the same time incorporating the parent VCA movement.

But I'm not sure if this is new. It's really confusing from an editor's perspective when fixing a re-conformed session that carries mix automation.

From a mixer's perspective it might actually be a wanted feature, preserving the parent VCA curve while compensating the volume curve of the assigned audio tracks? Not sure...

That said: I always thought the blue line always represents the resulting sum of all VCAs assigned to a given audio track. In my example it clearly doesn't because the blue line on the audio track is now a straight line (unlike the parent VCA) while the volume curve compensates for that shape upwards to create thew correct audible result. Super-confusing...

Frank.
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Old 08-12-2020, 01:07 AM
lasse456 lasse456 is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

Hi Frank,
I'm afraid it's not a bug. The behaviour you are looking for will happen once you enable trim mode.

As I have trim mode enabled almost all the time for a few years now, I can't even tell you, if the logic for not having trim mode engaged changed or not.

Can someone else recall this or test it with an earlier version, just to be sure if this is new??


Best


Lars
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Old 08-12-2020, 01:32 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

Thanks Lars, I guess you're right.
My misconception was that I assumed the blue line shows the sum of all assigned VCAs while it *actually* shows the resulting curve incl. the absolute volume curve of the audio track.

I guess as long as the VCA are all 0dB (which is mostly the case when editing) this doesn't visually make a difference but as soon as there's movement on VCAs and tracks it changes to sometimes confusing result.

Frank.
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2020, 02:26 AM
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Farhoof Farhoof is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

This is confusing indeed. Also the reason I don't work with VCA's.
The track's fader movement represents the resulting fader movement of the track volume automation and vca volume automation combined.

So I you have some complex vca automation but no track automation, and want a clip to gently fade out using the track fader, you'll have to incorporate that complex vca movement into your fading fader movement or else it will draw an opposite volume automation. The workaround is to draw the volume automation yourself, but that's silly if you have a mixer. Or just use the trim mode and coalesce after the write pass. But I would prefer the fader to follow the volume automation of the track, not volume automation combined with the VCA.

I'm not sure it has always been like this though, but it has been for last few years IIRC.
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:21 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhoof View Post
This is confusing indeed. Also the reason I don't work with VCA's.
The track's fader movement represents the resulting fader movement of the track volume automation and vca volume automation combined.

So I you have some complex vca automation but no track automation, and want a clip to gently fade out using the track fader, you'll have to incorporate that complex vca movement into your fading fader movement or else it will draw an opposite volume automation. The workaround is to draw the volume automation yourself, but that's silly if you have a mixer. Or just use the trim mode and coalesce after the write pass. But I would prefer the fader to follow the volume automation of the track, not volume automation combined with the VCA.

I'm not sure it has always been like this though, but it has been for last few years IIRC.
I guess in that case it's best to work in trim. But most mixers I know (incl. Lars) work in trim anyway so the issue rarely surfaces.
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  #8  
Old 08-12-2020, 02:23 PM
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Branko Branko is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

Hi everyone. I checked on some 2019 versions and it is exactly the same. I would also say it is an expected behavior, as riding a channel fader over VCA should override the previous movement. As Lars said, if you like your VCA movements and you want to preserve them, you should use "trim" mode on channel.
That's why inverse automation is written during the process - to null the VCA "layer" of the automation and allow channel fader to be controlled by it's own automation only.
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2020, 01:14 PM
SBP SBP is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

If you want to write to member of vca and maintain the moves from the vac use trim on the vac member.

If you want the member to be unaffected by the vca moves then you write automation with member not in trim mode.

The blue line is the result.

Hope this helps.

I don't think it's changed recently and I find it is quite a flexible set up as it is.

Cheers
Bruno

I meant to add if conforming also conform the vca track. Or coalesce vac to member tracks before conform if that won't stich you up down the line.

There used to be an issue of needing an audio track as top track when conforming with conformalizer, as vca track didn't always get selected. not sure if that remains.

Last edited by SBP; 08-14-2020 at 05:12 PM.
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  #10  
Old 08-17-2020, 07:30 AM
mik mik is offline
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Default Re: Bug in 20.5: write to selection with VCA active

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhoof View Post
This is confusing indeed. Also the reason I don't work with VCA's.
The track's fader movement represents the resulting fader movement of the track volume automation and vca volume automation combined.

So I you have some complex vca automation but no track automation, and want a clip to gently fade out using the track fader, you'll have to incorporate that complex vca movement into your fading fader movement or else it will draw an opposite volume automation. The workaround is to draw the volume automation yourself, but that's silly if you have a mixer. Or just use the trim mode and coalesce after the write pass. But I would prefer the fader to follow the volume automation of the track, not volume automation combined with the VCA.

I'm not sure it has always been like this though, but it has been for last few years IIRC.
Yes,totally agree.
It works also like that in 2018.3
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