Recording to two PT HD systems

[BradLyons]

As emlumper stated, I am one of those that is using a Venue and HD system every weekend for recording our church services. I record (2) services every week, and every week it just works. Not only am I running ProToolsHD, I'm using our Sweetwater Creation Station PC Rack---that's right, WINDOWS BABY!!! haha We are locked to timecode and video as well as house sync. I'm also doing a live broadcast mix via PTHD on a Control24 while simultaneously tracking for post the following week. I have 100% faith that my system will work---because it just does. I use a Glyph GT103 chassis with (2) drives recording as many as 80-channels, and again it just works.

AS to the previous post about removing plugins and don't touch anything, nope---it's fine. So on this system, I'm running several instances of Autotune, I have EQ's on every channel and compressors on most. In addition, I'm running Guitar Amp Modeling on a few channels, several channels of the Aphex BigBottom plugin, the McDSP ML4000 going live and I think 6 or 7 instances of Revibe as well as one instance of ReverbOne. NOT to mention, Analog Channel all over the place. All in all, I'm probably running 140-plugins on average give or take WHILE providing a broadcast mix moving faders, adjusting pans, etc in REAL TIME locked perfectly to video. I have configured several churches with this exact same setup, one of them has removed a Yamaha PM5D in replace of the PTHD system with a C24.

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi Eytan,

You said...

Another idea I had is - if I configure the Venue to a 96 ch system - then I will patch the first 48 inputs to channels 1-48 AND to 49-96. Would I then be able to record channels 49-96 (which have the same signal as ch 1-48) through the second HDx card?

Not exactly. The first 48 channels to Pro Tools are taken directly from the stage rack mic pres. They're not connected in any way to the processing channels assigned on the console. So HDx1 gets Stage 1 pres 1-48, and HDx2 gets Stage 2 pres 1-48. Assigning Stage 1 to console processing channels 49-96 does not automatically route them to HDx2.

You mention in another post about splitting the internal ribbon cable to the two HDx cards. Digital signals can't be treated the same as analog signals in this regard, so definitely don't do this

Here are a few options that are guaranteed to work:
1) Use a second VENUE system and an analog split, as Scott mentions.
2) Since it’s 48 channels only, hire in just a second stage rack and load it with digital I/O cards. Route the direct outs from Stage 1 ch 1-48 to the outputs on this second stage rack, then connect these outputs to a secondary Pro Tools rig (using HD peripherals) or loop the digital output cards back in to digital output cards on the same stage rack. The signals will then appear on the HDx2 card.

Here’s another option that’s not officially tested or qualified (so user beware), but in theory should work...
Using a single stage rack, connect the primary snake’s in and out ports to the FOH Rack’s Snake 1 card. Connect the backup snake’s output only to the input of the Snake 2 card. This mirrors the stage rack output signals to HDx 1 and 2, at the expense of losing the fully redundant snake connection between stage and FOH. If the racks are near each other and the cabling’s not passing through an audience there’s likely a low risk of snake cable failure, so this may be a good way to go. You’ll see a “phantom” second stage rack appear within the D-Show software, which is a bit odd, but otherwise all the signals are where they need to be.

Sheldon

[dstagl]

As a 10 year+ Pro Tools user, I wouldn't discourage anyone from wanting a redundant backup system during a critical event. I've been pretty satisfied with stability in my last couple years of use, but for critical recordings where you get one shot I don't know that it's ever bad to use a backup.

Personally, I find our Pro Tools rig running at FOH alongside the Venue to be incredibly rock solid. I usually keep it about a version behind, and I've had zero problems recording 48 tracks for close to 3 hours. I think part of the key to this is using Digidesign approved drives (in my recollection, Pro Tools does not play nice with RAIDs), and basically using Pro Tools as a glorified multi-track tape machine. It's a barebones setup stripped of plugins.

Our studio Pro Tools rig has been a different story, however. We're doing a broadcast style mix in there while we're tracking, and Pro Tools 7.4 has given me some trouble in there. I never lost any audio, but I've had some crashes upon pressing stop, and I've had to rebuild sessions using the timestamps on the files. I'm pretty sure I've got this fixed now--try and uncheck the disable tasks during playback option in the Task Manager.

But I will say this if our studio rig is the less stable machine. When we recorded the latest North Point Live record, Louder Than Creation, last fall we used the studio as our primary recording and the Venue rig as a backup. We never needed the backup.

If I needed to do a backup with the Venue PT rig running as the primary, I would probably first look at using direct outs on the channels and going analog to a backup Pro Tools rig. If that wasn't an option, I'd probably just look at contracting a mobile recording company because I'd be moving towards using an additional analog split with more pre-amp needs, and it's probably not worth my time to try and jerry-rig something over just hiring a truck or a guy with a bunch of pre's and a rig.

Personally, I trust my Venue Pro Tools rig over every other Pro Tools rig I've worked on for the last ten years and would feel comfortable without a backup even though I currently have the luxury of one.

Dave

[TwoPort]

"Known Issues
* Pro Tools does not support RAID technology. Please do not activate this feature on any Pro Tools recording drives."

-- Well looks like RAID might be a bad idea after all. Sorry for the erroneous post..

[eytan]

Thank you all,

Your replies are very helpful.

[bmadix]

Originally Posted by emluper

eytan,

I would tell my client to do some research for himself to see that this is unnecessary. The Venue has been in production for over 3 years now (kinda hard to believe it's been that long), with the HDx cards available for about 2 and a half. I've yet to have Pro Tools lose anything when the computer is properly set up. There are people on here such as Brad, TwoPort, dstagl, and many others who are running their PT setups every weekend (some more than once in a day depending on service schedules) and I've yet to hear any of them complain that the system is less than rock solid or that they've even lost one file. In regards to the Venue / PT setup Digi did an amazing job of keeping it all rockin'. The only time I've even read about a redundant system was during the April issue of Mix when they were discussing the Grammy telecast.

Erik

I know I'm a few months late to this, but my two cents: Protools recording in the Venue environment is very, very stable. I think it would be fair to say it's as stable as the computer system you're recording to. I've recorded hundreds of shows all over the world with very few problems, and I have never once lost the Venue. However, I cannot say with a straight face that there have been zero issues. My opinion is that if you must be 100% certain you're going to walk away with a recording of that show, you'll be recording to two systems.

[bmadix]

Originally Posted by Sheldon Radford

Hi Eytan,

You said...

Not exactly. The first 48 channels to Pro Tools are taken directly from the stage rack mic pres. They're not connected in any way to the processing channels assigned on the console. So HDx1 gets Stage 1 pres 1-48, and HDx2 gets Stage 2 pres 1-48. Assigning Stage 1 to console processing channels 49-96 does not automatically route them to HDx2.

You mention in another post about splitting the internal ribbon cable to the two HDx cards. Digital signals can't be treated the same as analog signals in this regard, so definitely don't do this

Here are a few options that are guaranteed to work:
1) Use a second VENUE system and an analog split, as Scott mentions.
2) Since it’s 48 channels only, hire in just a second stage rack and load it with digital I/O cards. Route the direct outs from Stage 1 ch 1-48 to the outputs on this second stage rack, then connect these outputs to a secondary Pro Tools rig (using HD peripherals) or loop the digital output cards back in to digital output cards on the same stage rack. The signals will then appear on the HDx2 card.

Here’s another option that’s not officially tested or qualified (so user beware), but in theory should work...
Using a single stage rack, connect the primary snake’s in and out ports to the FOH Rack’s Snake 1 card. Connect the backup snake’s output only to the input of the Snake 2 card. This mirrors the stage rack output signals to HDx 1 and 2, at the expense of losing the fully redundant snake connection between stage and FOH. If the racks are near each other and the cabling’s not passing through an audience there’s likely a low risk of snake cable failure, so this may be a good way to go. You’ll see a “phantom” second stage rack appear within the D-Show software, which is a bit odd, but otherwise all the signals are where they need to be.

Sheldon

Sheldon,

What happens if you "y" the snake outputs to a second FOH rack? Wouldn't you retain stage rack control and HDX in and out through the first FOH rack and mirrored HDX outs on the second FOH rack? Would you still retain the redundant backup snake?

Also, with regard to my previous post and in response to other posts: I've done a number of shows such as the Grammy Awards, the VMAs, Country Music Awards, Latin Grammy Awards, etc. In every instance, there was a backup multitrack running in the truck. Having said that, in all of the times I've been involved in a multi-track recording of a live event (hundreds) I can think of only two instances where the backup was used.

Brad

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi Brad,

Great to see you on the DUC. Thanks for contributing!

Originally Posted by bmadix

What happens if you "y" the snake outputs to a second FOH rack? Wouldn't you retain stage rack control and HDX in and out through the first FOH rack and mirrored HDX outs on the second FOH rack? Would you still retain the redundant backup snake?

Well, this is uncharted (and untested) territory but let's go there and see what happens...

In theory, it can be done...with caveats. One major limitation to "Y"-ing the outputs (using a passive BNC T-split connection, I'm assuming) is that it cuts the effective snake length in half. So max 250 feet using high quality cable. Also, the cable on both sides of the T-split needs to be the exact same length in order to minimize reflections (curse you laws of physics and transmission lines!). So even if the backup FOH Rack rack was located next to the Stage rack the same amount of cable is needed as the longest run.

Things would look a little weird on the backup FOH Rack as well. It wouldn't know there's a Stage Rack due to the single-ended snake connection, but it would still get the audio. There'd be no gain control, either, as that's controlled by the master FOH Rack. But in theory it all would work and you'd have a redundant record rig.

An alternate arrangement would be to forego the redundant snake option and simply use the second snake output from Stage Rack to feed the slave FOH Rac, since audio is present on both snake outputs at all times. The advantages to this approach are that separate cable lengths can be used for the main and backup runs, and no T-splits are involved.

Again, all of this is speculative and untested. Do not risk a major recording event (or your career) on it!

Sheldon

[bmadix]

Originally Posted by Sheldon Radford

Hi Brad,

Great to see you on the DUC. Thanks for contributing!

Well, this is uncharted (and untested) territory but let's go there and see what happens...

In theory, it can be done...with caveats. One major limitation to "Y"-ing the outputs (using a passive BNC T-split connection, I'm assuming) is that it cuts the effective snake length in half. So max 250 feet using high quality cable. Also, the cable on both sides of the T-split needs to be the exact same length in order to minimize reflections (curse you laws of physics and transmission lines!). So even if the backup FOH Rack rack was located next to the Stage rack the same amount of cable is needed as the longest run.

Things would look a little weird on the backup FOH Rack as well. It wouldn't know there's a Stage Rack due to the single-ended snake connection, but it would still get the audio. There'd be no gain control, either, as that's controlled by the master FOH Rack. But in theory it all would work and you'd have a redundant record rig.

An alternate arrangement would be to forego the redundant snake option and simply use the second snake output from Stage Rack to feed the slave FOH Rac, since audio is present on both snake outputs at all times. The advantages to this approach are that separate cable lengths can be used for the main and backup runs, and no T-splits are involved.

Again, all of this is speculative and untested. Do not risk a major recording event (or your career) on it!

Sheldon

"speculative and untested" is my middle name!

Brad

[gilparente]

Hi Sheldon,

has anyone ever tried using an active splitter for the coax. Granted, some of those may have some sort of buffer that can mess things up. Just wondering as I'm remembering that I have an extron distro laying around.

I'll have to scope out the digi snake signal and see what it looks like.

take care
Gil