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  #11  
Old 07-19-2011, 11:43 AM
sound01 sound01 is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kruse View Post
All you need to do on the MC side is a referenced OMF/AAF to maintain the metadata. There's nothing else the editor can do.
If only it were that easy. I've had many jobs where the media has been taken into MC in such a way that files, exported in AAF or OMF format, don't allow me to use this function. And asking the picture department to go back once the sound crew has started and re-import all the media the way we'd like it, just isn't going to happen.

As Craig F said, a video showing the correct settings for the picture department to import the media into MC would be very helpful..... invaluable...... great!!!
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2011, 12:33 PM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

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Originally Posted by sound01 View Post
If only it were that easy. I've had many jobs where the media has been taken into MC in such a way that files, exported in AAF or OMF format, don't allow me to use this function. And asking the picture department to go back once the sound crew has started and re-import all the media the way we'd like it, just isn't going to happen.

As Craig F said, a video showing the correct settings for the picture department to import the media into MC would be very helpful..... invaluable...... great!!!
AFAIK there is no way to prevent meta-data from being read on import in the MC. Were these referenced OMFs/AAFs?

there are about a million reasons why match clip doesn't work. about 999998 ways to enter wrong meta-data on set. editors cutting with scratch-tracks from a digital camera without matching TC. Just because matxh-clip doesn't work it doesn't mean they used import/export in a wrong way. mostly the entire workflow is wrong or the recordist didn't enter tape-numbers or A LOT of other mistakes being made long before the fles teach the avid.

I have never come across a situation where the MC failed to forward the original meta-data to it's media files.

the only things to set on the MC is the media file type and the way wrong Fs and bit-depth is handled.
there are very few things to set on export. I am not aware of an "ignore meta-data" setting or the like.

99.9% of relinking trouble comes from poorly maintained meta-data on set. the rest are bugs in PT but I heard they fixed some in 9.0.3.

if there is no meta-data in your media files that was in the original bwavs you are most likely using an embedded OMF/aaf.

plase correct me if I'm wrong but I've never seen an option hat will ignore metadata from original bwavs.

frank
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2011, 02:36 PM
Mr.Ed Mr.Ed is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kruse View Post
All you need to do on the MC side is a referenced OMF/AAF to maintain the metadata. There's nothing else the editor can do.
Mos importantly the sound recordist needs to enter correct meta data because it can't be changed once imported into the avid.

frank.
If you are working on a show which utilizes "Digital Dailies" from a company such as E-Films or MTI this (expand tracks) workflow will not work. Those digital dailies system utilize the Avid MediaComposer SDK which do not properly embed source audio TC into the created MXF audio files. Until Avid fixes MC and the SDK this very popular and more common workflow on larger pictures will not work with Ptools expand tracks.

Also If the picture department ingests media from certain versions of the Deva or Cantar with more then 8 channels of audio ingested into MC, The audio files above channel (8 I believe) are not stamped with the correct meta data for channel and track name (Regardless of what was inputted on set) this is a Media Composer issue. These problems will affect protools expand tracks functionality, since protools can only expand tracks with correct meta data.

The issue seems to lie in the fact that Deva and Cantar (along with others) utilize iXML to store that vast amounts of metadata into there sound files. Media composer does not support iXML. I assume the video that Tom made was utilizing a workflow using a sound devices or a deva with a few channels of audio.

We need Media Composer and Protools to develop a new established and tested Media Composer->Protools workflow (using expand tracks) that we in the industry can accurately follow. We need Avid to fix the Meta Data compatibility issues with Deva and Cantar as well as with MTI so that files ingested into Media Composer will retain the proper meta data and pass this on to Protools.
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  #14  
Old 07-20-2011, 12:39 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

Yep, another example for bugs and hickups in the workflow. My point was that there is no magical press of button sequence in the avid that will make this feature work or not work. All the editor can do is export as referenced omf/aaf. there is no wrong "button presses" in the MC the editor can do to stop this from working. Embedded OMF/AAF will strip meta-data and is to be avoided.

It's either bugs or not entered meta-data.

Which is why Titan is still the only solution for lots of projects..

Here´s another bug in AVID. From the Aaton mailing-list:

"Media Composer 3.5 and 4.0 do NOT recognize the updated BEXT information beyond Track 1 on import. Specifically, Track Names are ignored for Tracks 2 through 8 when choosing the "Autodetect Monophonic Groups" settings. 2-8 are also ignored when imported an already interleaved polyphonic audio file created by Majax.
The only time Media Composer sees the newly updated BEXT metadata in the BWF files is if the mono files are imported separately with the "Autodetect" function turned off"

I wonder if this was fixed in MC 5? Anyone know?

Tracks 2-8 are actually not ignored but the AVID enters the info from Track 1 into ALL the other tracks as well.
Example: Tracks 1-4 called "Mix, Boom, Lav1, Lav2" the AVID will enter "Mix" for all 4 tracks.

For some reason this doesn´t happen with Deva files.

Also: AVID MC should really begin to support iXML after all these years.PT does it and ALL professional recorders have been writing iXML for many years.

To sum it up:

There is no way for AVID to make a screen capture video of simple import/export options that need to be ticked that will ensure a working track expand function. The video they posted is a nice overview of what happens AFTER all the important and complex pit falls have been ruled out. It´s more or less the easy last stage of the chain. To make it work there are LOTS of other things to maintain from the first day of the shoot.
It´s actually like in one of those cooking TV shows where the host preps a cheese soufflée in 5 minutes puts it in to the oven and pulls out another already perfectly done souffllée that will not deflate once it´s out. ;-)

The stuff that needs to be sorted out and tested before that is probably a 3-hour-video or even longer.

Ultimately AVID MC could actually incorporate a function that will lay in all the not used clips on their side and then OMF/AAF. Probably much easier than doing the match tracks hoop jumping since all necessary media is already in the MC anyway and the MC is lightyears ahead of PT in terms of media-management. At the moment this a cumbersome half-manual clip-by-clip workflow in the MC.
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  #15  
Old 07-20-2011, 03:41 AM
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The Cargo Cult The Cargo Cult is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

I'll add that the MC editor has tricks to populate a bin with all "related" media which they can then send you in a second AAF - saves having to wrangle massive sessions containing every take from the film. Also be aware that apart from being awkward, there is a maximum file count for the region bin (around 32000 I think).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Ed View Post
... certain versions of the Deva or Cantar with more then 8 channels of audio ingested into MC, The audio files above channel (8 I believe) are not stamped with the correct meta data for channel and track name (Regardless of what was inputted on set) this is a Media Composer issue. These problems will affect protools expand tracks functionality, since protools can only expand tracks with correct meta data.
I have this problem on a project at the moment but in my experience we lose only the channel names. expanding still works since the "tape" metadata is retained but it does cause the un-named channels to be expanded onto a separate set of numbered tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Ed View Post
The issue seems to lie in the fact that Deva and Cantar (along with others) utilize iXML to store that vast amounts of metadata into there sound files. Media composer does not support iXML.
you're right, but that's not the issue - the track 8 thing is an MC bug it seems.

but... there most definitely are two serious issues with the Zaxcom Fusion at least:

1. it truncates the all-important bext description metadata field causing loss of channel names depending on length of names and notes.
it fails to use all 256 characters available in the field and in my experience clipped at about 210 characters.
this is the one metadata field that we all rely on to get matches happening in PT since iXML is ignored by MC.

2. it truncates the iXML chunk before it writes it back to the file rendering the iXML invalid and illegible in pretty much any application.

unfortunately the response from Zaxcom was pretty relaxed.


I agree with Frank that there are way too many ways for the recordist to break the workflow. the lesson is to do everything in your power to test the workflow before the shoot begins and to come to terms with the fact that no two jobs are the same.

and finally: if missing TAPE info is causing issues in your workflow you can use sibliminator to create TAPE names based on the file name.

justin
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  #16  
Old 07-20-2011, 10:34 AM
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Tom Graham Tom Graham is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles D. Ballard View Post
I don’t know if this is the true origins of this statement, but a number of years ago I was at joint meeting of SMPTE and AES that was held at one of the dub stages at Universal Studios in Los Angeles. The topic was digital cinema and DLP. (To give you an idea of how long ago, at the time I believe there were 10 houses in the United States that had a digital projector).

During the introduction to the meeting, one of the SMPTE guys repeated the line, “Television without picture is radio.” When David Scally, who I believe was President of the Los Angeles chapter of AES at the time, addressed the group, he made reference to that line and said, “SMPTE often reminds us that television without picture is radio, I’d remind everyone that television without sound is a surveillance camera.” I loved the line so I wrote it down and have often repeated it.

The statement came off as one of the many witty quips that Dave was famous for. I don’t know, because I never asked, if he got that line from someone else, but he certainly had the wit and talent to have come up with that on the spot. I, therefore, suggest that unless we have evidence to the contrary, we accredit that line to him.
Very cool... I will do so in the future! Thanks for sharing! Does he have an affiliation I should use as well? M.P.S.E.?
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  #17  
Old 07-20-2011, 10:43 AM
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Tom Graham Tom Graham is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Ed View Post
If you are working on a show which utilizes "Digital Dailies" from a company such as E-Films or MTI this (expand tracks) workflow will not work. Those digital dailies system utilize the Avid MediaComposer SDK which do not properly embed source audio TC into the created MXF audio files. Until Avid fixes MC and the SDK this very popular and more common workflow on larger pictures will not work with Ptools expand tracks.

Also If the picture department ingests media from certain versions of the Deva or Cantar with more then 8 channels of audio ingested into MC, The audio files above channel (8 I believe) are not stamped with the correct meta data for channel and track name (Regardless of what was inputted on set) this is a Media Composer issue. These problems will affect protools expand tracks functionality, since protools can only expand tracks with correct meta data.

The issue seems to lie in the fact that Deva and Cantar (along with others) utilize iXML to store that vast amounts of metadata into there sound files. Media composer does not support iXML. I assume the video that Tom made was utilizing a workflow using a sound devices or a deva with a few channels of audio.

We need Media Composer and Protools to develop a new established and tested Media Composer->Protools workflow (using expand tracks) that we in the industry can accurately follow. We need Avid to fix the Meta Data compatibility issues with Deva and Cantar as well as with MTI so that files ingested into Media Composer will retain the proper meta data and pass this on to Protools.
Hi Again,

The process we used was MTI digitized the Sony F35 footage into their 'digital dailies' system and through a miscommunication, they did not take the audio from the camera with it into DNX 175 (which contained a version of the production mixers 'mix' - this is neither here not there, just a side note for history's sake).

They then sent us DNX36 for editorial purposes (MOS) and Scott Wood took the audio from two devices (8 Channel DEVA and 4 Channel Sound Devices) and then hand sunk the video daily with the matching audio (mix channel) clip and then created a new sub clip that was then sorted into the proper bin by the Video Editor.

Scott Wood said in the next 30 days or so - he will make a screen cap video to show this process.

I will also pass along this thread to the Product Manager in charge of MC>PT workflow at Avid. Thanks for all your feedback guys...

Tom
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  #18  
Old 07-20-2011, 12:25 PM
Mr.Ed Mr.Ed is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Graham View Post
Hi Again,

The process we used was MTI digitized the Sony F35 footage into their 'digital dailies' system and through a miscommunication, they did not take the audio from the camera with it into DNX 175 (which contained a version of the production mixers 'mix' - this is neither here not there, just a side note for history's sake).

They then sent us DNX36 for editorial purposes (MOS) and Scott Wood took the audio from two devices (8 Channel DEVA and 4 Channel Sound Devices) and then hand sunk the video daily with the matching audio (mix channel) clip and then created a new sub clip that was then sorted into the proper bin by the Video Editor.

Scott Wood said in the next 30 days or so - he will make a screen cap video to show this process.

I will also pass along this thread to the Product Manager in charge of MC>PT workflow at Avid. Thanks for all your feedback guys...

Tom
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the explanation on how you set up this demonstration.

Since your test involved Scott hand importing and syncing the production audio to avid picture, you would not have run into the meta data problems (missing meta data on audio files from the MTI side as well as missing metadata on Deva and Cantar multichannel files) that would have otherwise occurred. Had this (importing and syncing) process been automatically done via the MTI software, or had you attempted to sync multiple channels of audio from the Deva and Cantar you would have run into the issues spoken of during this thread.

Would it be possible to run your test project through the pipeline again, while having MTI process the Video and Audio separately? (video from tape and audio from the Deva or sound devices). It would be great for you to "see" these particular workflow (missing metadata) issues first hand.
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  #19  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:19 PM
Craig F Craig F is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

Thanks Tom

Will uncompress copies be available?
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  #20  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:41 PM
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Tom Graham Tom Graham is offline
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Default Re: Film Production Sound Tips & Field Recorder Workflow with Pro Tools 9.0.3

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Originally Posted by Craig F View Post
Thanks Tom

Will uncompress copies be available?
Hi Craig...
Not sure what you mean... Uncompressed video to watch? Audio demo example files? ...and, if I may, for what?
Thanks,
T
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