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  #11  
Old 02-07-2016, 03:41 AM
demodigi demodigi is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Hi OliverH,

Thanks for making those further tests. It seems to confirm that it's simply a signal flow issue more than an ADC issue.

As I said, we (you) are delaying the main audio signal but not the SC bus => So of course time sync issues are occurring.

A good way to confirm all of this would be to test with an HD or HDX system (DSP) + UAD plug-in in the same DAW, and try different insert orders. If those timing issues are also happening, and can be solved with a Master Fader, all people claiming that's it's an HD-DSP only feature will be dismissed ... (I never heard Avid Support confirming that's it's an DSP Feature only).

Another good test would be to do the same with another DAW. But DAWs are using a different method to compensate plug-in delays. If a DAW is using the measurement technique, there should be no issue. Pro Tools is using a calculation technique & is more prone to fail with some particular cases (if a Plug-in or an audio interface doesn't report its latency correctly, if the route path is too complex, etc...).

But it's a part of our job (sound engineer) to understand where our signals are going from and are going to. Especially when dealing with parallel signal flows.
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2016, 03:55 AM
midnightrambler midnightrambler is online now
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by demodigi View Post
all people claiming that's it's an HD-DSP only feature will be dismissed ... (I never heard Avid Support confirming that's it's an DSP Feature only).

Ahem. P110 of the manual. http://duc.avid.com/attachment.php?a...1&d=1454846112
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2016, 04:09 AM
demodigi demodigi is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Ah Ok. So I am dismissed .

EDIT : on HDX system, does it actually works with all kind of plug-ins or AAX-DSP only ? (ex : a mix of UAD, Native AAX and DSP AXX plug-in chain)
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  #14  
Old 02-07-2016, 10:35 PM
OliverH OliverH is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by demodigi View Post
Ah Ok. So I am dismissed .

EDIT : on HDX system, does it actually works with all kind of plug-ins or AAX-DSP only ? (ex : a mix of UAD, Native AAX and DSP AXX plug-in chain)
I think I read somewhere that, yes, HDX's Side Chain delay compensation feature only applies to AAX DSP plugs. Once non-DSP plugs are used, I think it can't guarantee proper ADC for side chain connection between two channels.

Also, BTW, in my tests, I am using an HD Native setup.
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2016, 08:00 AM
Kregan Kregan is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Hmm interesting...

In my tests I used a compressor that induces no delay, and I put delay inducing plugins after the compressor so of course I didn't run into any problems. I got the trigger track part figured out, but didn't account for the compressor tracks delay up to and including the compressor because I used a no delay compressor that was first in the chain!

I'll make sure to run more tests with this new info and report back.

Good job everyone! The power of a mastermind group eh!
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  #16  
Old 02-08-2016, 11:45 AM
Kregan Kregan is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Alright guys i've tested everything demodigi and oliverh were talking about in regards to the order of the plugin chain for latency inducing plugins on the compressor track... And everything you guys have said appears to be correct!

Well done you two for figuring this out and testing it :)

A couple things to be aware of in a full and complex session is... Track freezing! Freezing a track changes the delay of the track (if it has any) which will throw off your sidechain again! Which gets complex if your delaying the sidechain using the master fader/time adjuster method. So if your constantly freezing and unfreezing tracks to save resources and doing complex routing in a session you have to be aware of this.

Also if the audio you want to be compressed is being routed through multiple busses and auxes, and then you put the compressor on the last aux, any changes that induce delay on any of the previous auxes will also through the sidechain off.

So in a full session things can get quite complex. For me to keep things as simple as possible, and also so I don't have to be constantly making adjustments to keep the sidechain in time, I think i'll make sure to always have the compressor plugin first in the chain, both the plugin chain as well as bus/aux routing chain if that makes sense.

Especially if your freezing and unfreezing tracks this will save a lot of time making adjustments to keep the sidechain in time.
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  #17  
Old 04-11-2016, 11:32 PM
mattdugred mattdugred is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Hi guys.

Its absolutely disgraceful that this feature is not standard for HD Native systems. Disgraceful and embarrassing to Avid, and frustrating to its customs who have spent thousands of dollars and hours on Pro Tools, only to have to ask clients to bounce side chained versions of their tracks, because your supposedly 'Pro' software doesn't keep it side chains in time. Any one at Avid who doesn't immediately drop what they are doing and rectify this appalling flaw looses all respect from me.

HOWEVER...

I think I may have a work around that allows the SC bus to be automatically delay compensated, and doesn't require any additional tweaking as the mix progresses. Ive just tested it and it seems to work, let me know your results. Ive read this thread and havn't seen it mentioned, forgive me if it has been.

1 - Create a new audio track (lets call it DLY CMP)
2 - Create an aux send (lets call it DLY CMP too) on the channel you want to trigger the compressor, for instance the Bass Drum, turn up the send to 0 and make it pre fader
3 - Make the input of the DLY CMP track the bus DLY CMP
4 - Make the output of the DLY CMP track a new bus (we'll call this PUMP)
5 - Turn on input monitoring on the DLY CMP track and make it Solo Safe
6 - On the compressor you want to key, select the bus PUMP
7 - Your side chain should now be delay compensated

Let me know if this method has any issues. I havnt tested it extensively yet but is working for me so far.

Happy pumping!
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  #18  
Old 04-15-2016, 11:40 AM
garderobamusic garderobamusic is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Hi guys,

I'm so thrilled to have stumbled on your discussion. The workaround is totally working for me. I was going nuts, nudging the key track back and forth not knowing that any time I added a plugin adding latency I was shooting myself in the knee...

Once again thanks for sharing the results of your research!!!
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  #19  
Old 04-24-2016, 10:33 PM
OliverH OliverH is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdugred View Post
Hi guys.
I think I may have a work around that allows the SC bus to be automatically delay compensated, and doesn't require any additional tweaking as the mix progresses. Ive just tested it and it seems to work, let me know your results. Ive read this thread and havn't seen it mentioned, forgive me if it has been.

1 - Create a new audio track (lets call it DLY CMP)
2 - Create an aux send (lets call it DLY CMP too) on the channel you want to trigger the compressor, for instance the Bass Drum, turn up the send to 0 and make it pre fader
3 - Make the input of the DLY CMP track the bus DLY CMP
4 - Make the output of the DLY CMP track a new bus (we'll call this PUMP)
5 - Turn on input monitoring on the DLY CMP track and make it Solo Safe
6 - On the compressor you want to key, select the bus PUMP
7 - Your side chain should now be delay compensated

Let me know if this method has any issues. I havnt tested it extensively yet but is working for me so far.
Hey man, I tried this and it didn't work for me. Did you try putting (for the sake of testing) a bunch of delay inducing plugins on the Trigger track (i.e. the bass drum in this case)? If you have any UAD plugs (they usually have a lot more delay induced than other plugs), try this: take practically any one of them, I used the Ampex one which induces something like ~3500 samples of delay per instance, and stack 3 of them on the kick/trigger track, just to make the issue REALLY noticable. The receiving slave compressor track is still way out of time on my end.

The only method that's been solid for me so far has been to commit the trigger track to audio with any plugs you might have on it and use that committed/printed version WITH ZERO delay on it's track (not to be confused with delay compensation amount) as the actual trigger track, mute it, but make sure to send the prefader "pump" aux send on it first to a maser fader with the Time Adjuster plug taking into account the cumulative delay induced by any plugs up to AND including your slave sidechain compressor, plugin signal flow being from the top down, of course.


**SPECIAL NOTE** I have noticed so far in one instance where I was side chaining a stock Avid gate/expander to a kick and snare and the Avid gate/expander showed that it DID INDUCE DELAY (not much but enough to possibly hear on drums) so I went about my normal protocol of printing delay-less versions of my kick and snare and ran my side chain aux send trigger through the master fader with the appropriate Time Adjuster value engaged, etc... and the final sound was OFF. Not sure why, but when I bypassed the side chain master fader routing, the sound was fine again. For whatever reason, this broke the rule and I was fine routing as if there was no problem in the first place.... (the way you wish the Pro Tools mixer would work in the first place...)

Moral of the story? USE YOUR EARS to check that everything's right when you're doing all of this. I usually solo the original trigger track (not the printed one, but the one I'm actually hearing in my mix) and the slave track and hit the "audition incoming side chain signal" button to check that the trigger track and the slave track are identically in time, with no where flamming or phasing before I move on). I ASSUMED bc I saw on the screen that there was delay coming my gate/expander that I would need to use the workaround... but I was wrong in this one instance. 9 times out of 10 the workaround WORKS for me, but just wanted to throw this out there that for whatever reason SOMETIMES the plugin you're slaving via sidechain (a compressor, gate, etc) DOES NOT need to be included in the cummulative delay amount you enter into the Time Adjuster plug.

Hope this helps.

Still pretty damn annoying, but hey, I'll take what I can get at this point.

Pro Tools thinks in terms of "audio" and not really "music" on a lot of things still....
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  #20  
Old 04-25-2016, 10:54 PM
mattdugred mattdugred is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Hmm are you sure you've done it just the way I said? its still working for me fine in that session. I have no plugs on the trigger track in this instance, but if I did I could still simply duplicate it with no plugs and use that as the trigger. FYI I used two waves soundshifters which create the biggest delay of anything I have to test, so it was easily noticeable.
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