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  #1  
Old 07-09-2005, 11:24 PM
wwittman wwittman is offline
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Default Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

So, let's say I have a multi-track recording, made over many months, that includes many tracks with multiple underlying playlists.
IN other words, the vocal track might have 8 or 10 other alt takes under it and the guitars might have different versions or different edited combinations and so on.

NOW at this stage we decide to remove the 2nd chorus and go straight to the middle-8.

So I select the offending chorus, and then in SHUFFLE, hit delete and it's gone.. the middle-8 and everyhting afterward, pulls forward to the edit point and after a bit fo margin adjusting I'm fine.
EXCEPT that the underlying playlists are NOT edited and now i can no longer go between those vocal takes or guitar comps or whatever as THEY are no longer in sync with my new form.
So I'm NOT fine.

THIS CANNOT be a purposeful, desireable thing.
I can only assume that either I am missing the obvious option that prevents this or this was written by someone who is a very capable computer programmer but who doesn't have even the slightest idea about making RECORDS.

If there is NOT an "edit all underlying playlists" option, there NEEDS to be.
I cannot see why shuffle wouldn't or shouldn't ALWAYS do that,

so AM I missing something?
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2005, 02:24 PM
danickstr danickstr is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

i did a search on this a while ago, when I found it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be, and the only thing I found was this, from Ducky: I never did it this way, since it seemed too convoluted, and I just chopped up my comps first and then did the removal.

Best thing to do is to break all the songs up into individual sessions. Copy the audio into each session and go to town (not leave, but attach the session setups). Here are a few pointers:
1. you can import tracks from other sessions
2. you can 'save session copy in' to duplicate the session for as many songs as you need
3. you can maually load each audio track as you wish. [yuck]

In the session, group your audio tracks so they do not go out of sync. Now you can move, trim, and snip multiple tracks at a time.

Find the "Consolidate audio region" in the manual and on the Edit menu. This simple duplicates the audio into a new file. CAUTION! Be sure the destructive record is OFF.

Once you have your songs organized, and not until then, start adding the overdubs on separate tracks. and play to your hearts content, one song at a time. Trim, cut, paste, automate, plugins, submixing... all that.

Once you have all the songs how you like them... and the rest of the band, of course, then bounce them to disk and bring them all together into one session. This is your mastering session.
Here you play with final EQ, Compression, limiting, timing/spacing between songs, etc. This should loook like what you want on the final CD.

There are a lot of tools in PTLE to help you make things easier. Review the manual for all the things you have available. As you see that you need something, go to the manual and learn more about it.

As for syncing up two tracks, assuming they start at the same place, you can tell a track exactly where to start. You will find this answer in the Edit Window Overview.

cheers
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  #3  
Old 07-26-2005, 04:27 PM
wwittman wwittman is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

So someone is seriously suggesting that I tell the record company or the singer or anyone else, "sorry, now that we've done all the overdubs, it's too late to think about an edit. We SHOULD HAVE done all that before overdubbing"?????
Yeah right.
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  #4  
Old 07-26-2005, 04:29 PM
Rail Jon Rogut Rail Jon Rogut is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

Perform your comp and then do the edit.

Rail
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  #5  
Old 07-26-2005, 05:20 PM
jeremyroberts jeremyroberts is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

William has a great point - but in fairness to the software, since there are MANY ways to edit and move the timebase around if you're not careful (or if desired) - we can't always expect the underlying takes to move if we do any timebase manipulation of the topmost track. I sure wouldn't want this to happen (that is, I like how the software works right now)...

SO -- what William wants to do I'm fairly sure he can do using "cut time" in the midi/tempo map functions.

But, as Rail suggested, why not simply comp first, then edit? Or if you must keep your pre-comped tracks, break out your zillion vocal takes from the playlist before the edit.

I personally will use a combination of playlists and tracks... but usually if it's down deep on a playlist, it wasn't good enough to make a final comp and by the time we're editing, it's long forgotten.

I hope I explained it clear enough -- since there are a zillion ways to snip time using shuffle, the programmers can't assume that all underlying takes must follow the top. It could be a disaster.
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2005, 06:27 PM
Andre Knecht Andre Knecht is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

Quote:
[...] but usually if it's down deep on a playlist, it wasn't good enough to make a final comp and by the time we're editing, it's long forgotten.
There may be very good reasons for not having comped everything at the time the shuffle edit needs to take place. Things change all the time, and nobody’s ever in total control when working with others (i.e. your typical professional situation). Flexibility is king. Flexible tools are always desireable.

I would very much like to see this capability implemented as a user-defined option.

I can see it now... A new big fat button right next to the four Mode selectors in the Edit window. It defaults to static GREEN (edit top-most playlist only) and - when clicked - switches to blinking RED (edit all playlists) (also known as “careful with that axe, Eugene” mode).

Now, can I get my voter sticker?
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2005, 08:32 PM
quadwould quadwould is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

here are 2 simple way to do it


if you have 8 playlists. Add 8 new tracks. cascade the playlists through these tracks. perform edit. save. change the 8 new tracks playlists back to they original no region lists, and then remove the 8 new tracks from the session.
your playlists will have changed and can be recalled on the main vox track that you are currently used to working on.

OR

Make a marker (ENTER key in the numeric keypad area) for the exact edit IN and OUT points. then make your edit of the instruments.

later when you want to make your Vocal Comps, call up the playlist you want, click the first marker, then while pressing shift, click the second marker. and delete the area in between




The reason that playlists do not get edited, is that it is far more valuable to have the ability to have multiple playlists for the whole project. If you press ALT when selecting New or Duplicate playlist, you make a New or Dupe on every track. and if you have , say, 15 playlists, it will be very usefull to have the ability to go back to an older one to grab something you might have changed irreversably in a more recent version, so that you can have that original available.

also thet way it is now, its greta for Post Production work.

as projects progress the picture ucually gets shorter (sometimes longer, sometimea same length but different scenes) if you use playlists it is a great way of having all the work you did or every different version right at you fingertips

One feature that Might be cool would bethe ability to group (somehow) playlists for the purpose of mass/Universal edits. but that would be the only use i could see for it.
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2005, 10:01 PM
Mixchump Mixchump is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

I dunno guys... I'm with William on this one. This has been a long-standing beef of many of my fellow engineers, and it seems that in every project there's the tense control-room conversation where I have to be the ***** and explain over and over again why I want to mix the song the way it is, and do a 2-track edit when we're done with the mix... And then, when everybody's pretty much happy with the mix, and I'm doing my 3rd round of recalls, I can do the real edit and part ways forever from all the optional takes (from the edit, onwards)

Although there are plenty of ways to work around the problem, this is really a thing that our lovely programmers at Digi need to solve for us. Andre's suggestion (edit all playlists) get's my vote in a big way.

These are the kinds of discussions that drive the software ever forwards!

Cheers, eh?
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2005, 10:47 PM
Andre Knecht Andre Knecht is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

Quote:
here are 2 simple way to do it

if you have 8 playlists. Add 8 new tracks... cascade the playlists… perform edit… save… change […] tracks playlists back… remove the 8 new tracks from the session.
You did say simple, right?

What you are describing (today’s “way” of circumventing this lack of feature, in fact) is worthy of a special Rube Goldberg Award. All yours - you earned it. Furthermore, what you are not describing is that the above “method” (for madness) applies to only one (1) track in a session. Hello?


Quote:
OR
Silver medal!



Quote:
The reason that playlists do not get edited...
Oh yes, learn us good, please.

The fact that you may never have run into a situation does not negate its existence, nor its negative impact on other people’s workflow, SuperBuddy™. Nobody is asking for current functionality to be altered (lest your “understanding” be disrupted). If you were to read the post and take time to actually assimilate their meaning, you might eventually come to understand that what’s being put forth is a request for options. (Now, here’s the best part, SuperBuddy™) By definition, should options be implemented, you may safely continue to ignore them, and I, in turn, would applaud you for doing so. And all that’s left is for you to occasionally dust and polish the award.

To recap… “options good.”
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2005, 07:52 AM
Tin Drum Tin Drum is offline
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Default Re: Shuffle editing and underlying play lists

Quote:
I can see it now... A new big fat button right next to the four Mode selectors in the Edit window. It defaults to static GREEN (edit top-most playlist only) and - when clicked - switches to blinking RED (edit all playlists) (also known as “careful with that axe, Eugene” mode).

I don't chime in much around here, but on this subject I just couldn't keep quiet...

PLEASE give us this option! Indeed, there are multi-step workarounds now, but an "apply edits to playlist layers" option would be a HUGE timesaver and protect against regretful misalignment of takes.

My 2 cents.

- Max
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