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Old 07-03-2011, 03:02 PM
aka21stCentury aka21stCentury is offline
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Default OT: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

I know I'm a pain in the neck. But I do have thoraxic spurs & lymes w/ carpal tunnel. My doctors are telling me it is nearly an epidemic. So...

http://www.vitalitywebb.com/backstore/Chairindex.htm

Take a look at these chairs. I know AVID is on vacation, a well deserved vacation, but I wonder are there any government grants to develop rolling stands (alternate setups) that will interface with a chair like this?

For many a Herman Miller chair just won't cut it!

There are a few chairs for programmers --- totally wired in, but composers and editors, mixers need to access many types of outboard gear and the wheels then must roll under these chairs, or the Zero Grav chair must motor in under the desk. Both for left and right handed users, and facing into natural light, not with the sun behind a glossy monitor. So all this must be taken into account. Acoustics of the room and LCD monitors. But if the sun is behind you, when the audio is half decent acoustically, one is stuck with adapting consumer stuff, junk really, that is not professionally designed to hold the proper gear.

I've been searching, scouring the internet, and I'm just guessing there must be 10,000 out there with at least a neck injury or excruciating pain in their back or wrists. Thankful at least my fingers still work, unlike some with arthritis of the finger joints.

The worse part is that unless you have a knee or hip injury, or a great attorney, back and neck pain is completely ignored by insurance who use medicare guidelines. Carpal tunnel now is ignored. I wear braces when sleeping or working at a keyboard (www.bodyglove.com)

State of Michigan just veto'd an ergonomic bill for the workplace.

So I'm guessing now there isn't any money (Government) but perhaps a private grant may be available?

This is a design problem and if AVID could support it, what a marketing coup that would be? Relatively pain free programming, composing, editing, sound design, mixing, without these non addictive drugs that last for about an hour?

One stop shopping in other words, approved for supporting an Euphonix controller or Pro Control, and/or other options, keyboard + trackball, MIDI controllers that adjust in height, LCD monitors... like Ergotron or Peerless, even small analogue desks that many now are using as a front end to HD.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

I have a pinched nerve in my pelvis, sitting up straight is not an option for me.

The chair I use is the closest thing to what you are looking for:

http://nethrone.com/

It solves the problem of keyboard and screens(I have 3). I also added mounts for my ns10s that move with the screens. The ideal way to use this setup is with a trackball.

What I am still missing with it is a good way to access a full weighted 88 key keyboard or a control surface.

I am actually planning on using my 3d software to design an angled worksurface that allows an 88 key keyboard (or console) to be used as a possibility with this. Just need the time, I simply can't afford to make the time right now, too many other projects.

I may also just find a motorized drafting table and butcher it for the frame. The nethrone's keyboard stand handles lightweight controller keyboards okay, but I don't think it's up to the task of a fully weighted controller.
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If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:02 AM
aka21stCentury aka21stCentury is offline
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Default Re: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

A quick question. Can you get in and out without pain, I mean, for me, putting weight on my wrists, despite the braces, this concerns me. You also are a composer, not a recording engineer, and need quick access to keyboards and controllers.

The zero gravity chair, motorized, but without arm wrests or movable like the Nethrone. What is nice is the space underneath, you can slide the third leg of a wheeled laptop stand (cannibalized for a small keyboard) or for an ASCii keyboard and two monitors. But they don't make them, as of yet. Flommer was kind enough to find this Quicklock stand for me, as I am testing out a NI Maschine as a drum trigger.

I will just tough it out on the 88 key, Rhodes, Hammond as I don't see any alternative. I use a lot of MIDI and analogue but most of the time is programming. But right now, as you can read, I am unable to work/compose.

http://quiklok.com/catalog/?p=produc...1&sName=QL-400

I had been considering mounting a pole, suspending the keyboards, controllers, triggers, so they swing into position and out again when not using them. All slightly different heights.

This would require a welder to build adjustable holders, a bit of a design job. I was looking at an old barber chair the other day with a foot pumped pneumatic height adjustment. This could raise and lower the swinging plates that could hold the Controller, keyboard, monitors, etc. So the ideal height for the chair can be set for each device.

JT -- Do you play your keyboard angled to view the LCD or flat? I am unable to play long on the Rhodes, prefer a Fatar semi-weighted action because of wrists, but I tested the new Hammond XK-2 and was unable to play thumb trills. Action was typical for a MIDI keyboard... not 11 gold wire contacts.

I have had this very large set of Utimate support modular tubing and clamps for every, with a mouse pad below the E-4 on the right side. Monitor mounted just above between the rear uprights. These are 1.5 inch aluminum tubes, I am not certain Ultimate support makes this massive build your own kit any longer. That mouse below the keyboard on the right side worked great until the back pain made it unbearable to sit in the very good chair (I had been using a backless seat you kneel in with an angle support for the shins, designed in Denmark. These chairs left over from a bulk purchase for the programmers at One Infinity Drive).

For the mouse pad: What I used was an old Bose clamp for a powered onstage monitor, clamping it to the Ultimate support upright holding the right front of the keyboard and screwed on plywood with a mouse pad over it. This was years ago but right below the E-4 with the CRT mounted above.

Now I use the older style Logitech Trackman Wheel thumb-ball. What are you using? The palm type? I like it because I have a pad to rest my wrist brace (an aluminum support inside) on the non angled section of the wheeled laptop stand so I can support the weight of my arm.

The smaller Korg modeling synth sounds like it might fit the Nethrone. Would two 21.5 inch E-Machine monitors fit? I have a third, slightly smaller but use it for a second mac tower... kind've need that two as I sync two machines.

I scoured the internet, Office Max online (I'm using laptop stands on wheels now). The KRK V-8s, just a hair larger than NS-10s, would they be supported on the Nethrone? They are currently on sand filled stands with carpet spikes. Screwed in, as this is earthquake country. I could move them without too many acoustical problems but the height on these stands are not adjustable.

I also have responsibilities and find this overwhelming. You remember my first post regarding this. What about a control surface like the Euphonix vs a Trackball?

Where is the bulk of AVID's business. Medical. Composers. Post. Mixing Surround... not that many recording studios left. And those that are have large SSLs with a sliding ergonomic chair, or the big Amek. I mean that rail mount chair was a stroke of genius. Been nice if the NS-10s moved with the chair though.

Here are the typical wheeled, height adjustable stands one can cannibalize for monitors, keyboards, etc.

http://quiklok.com/catalog/?p=produc...1&sName=QL-400

http://www.officemax.com/office-furn...ct-prod3290192

http://www.officemax.com/office-furn...ct-prod3290190
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

I can get in and out without pain. However my pain is caused by excessive sitting, squatting or lifting heavy objects, all of which I am very careful to control.

I do not use the arm rests on my nethrone, they are almost always folded up. In this position my upper arm leans against them comfortably. I generally spend at least 10 hours a day like this and it does not cause any strain or soreness.

Right now I have a 25 key controller attached to the nethrone's keyboard tray, along with my keyboard, trackball, iphone, and the monitor controller/remote for my audio interface. 90% of the time, this is all I need, but it would be nice to have a fully weighted keyboard in place of the cheap controller. If I need to use my kurzweil, I generally work at it standing up, or wheel the stand so it's at an angle within my reach.

Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics and somewhat messy studio, like I mentioned I'm currently in a temporary space until I close on the new house at the end of the month:

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL10.../397587835.jpg

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL10.../397587834.jpg
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If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
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Old 07-08-2011, 05:00 AM
aka21stCentury aka21stCentury is offline
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Default Re: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

Thank you very much. A lot of work huh, to get your setup to where it is currently. I think the fixed arm wrests on the zero gravity chair will make it too clumsy for keyboard or drum triggers.

You don't know how much I appreciate all this considering your schedule and nerve problems to boot. (deleted but you got it re the 335 virtuoso who should now take up trumpet?)

AVID employees, Quiklock whomever, there is a growing need for intelligently designed stands: so much garbage imported, poorly designed. Much of the user base that supports AVID is older now, not Mbox-2 owners. We hope future designs will consider very flexible setups, for chairs like the Nethrone or Zero Gravity (NASA) motorized chair (added -- the Smart Chair no picture unfortunately). http://ergonomenon.com/?p=168

John,

So all of that gear, LCD monitors, ASCii keyboard, 25 key controller and the NS-10s are all supported by the Nethrone itself?

I too use the Logitech thumb ball, as they are still in stock here (lot of code warriors use them still). I can support the weight of my arm with it on a mouse pad. I have four, worried they would stop making them.

Do you use a third party app to speed up the trackball? USB Overdrive? Mouseworks? Or just the Logitech app?

88 key weighted keyboard:

Years ago when those extremely heavy 22 inch Radius Monitors were everywhere, very heavy duty steel swinging arm type units that mounted on wall studs where available. School Districts used them to mount a TV set or monitor on the wall, they would unfold often 4-6 feet, I think with enough distance you may be able to set one up. They would be strong enough to secure an 88 key weighted action Kurzweil.

Possibly one place to check would be Full Compass who sell to school districts. Some would unfold as many as 4-6 heavy duty hinged arms to get the CRT close enough for students to view. http://www.peerlessmounts.com/Inform...iterature.aspx

It would keep you close to one wall, but that right corner or wall could be acoustically dampened.

http://www.ergotron.com/Products/tab...S/Default.aspx
More monitor stands etc.

I use velcro rolls with adhesive backs that can be cut up to keep some gear secure during a slight tremor. Wonder if there is any standard regarding mounting with screws similar to LCDs or Plasma Screens?

Thanks again. Those pictures are very helpful. I have a Reel to Reel rack (recorder removed) whose top pivots to a few angles or can be set upright (a lot of rack space) and is on wheels, a power amp can also be separately racked at its base. I've seen these online still, well very similar. Probably not anywhere as sturdily constructed. Added --Solid Support Industries, El Monte, Ca -- this thing has gone back and forth across the country and is still as solid as day one). It also holds a very heavy power amp and fully racked the casters (with locks released), allows you to move it easily on carpet.

I rack the gear and patch bay. Are you using any type of 'Gold Line' monitor controller pre-amp to switch speakers? I see you have three pairs.

Those flat trays that rack mount, I screwed the half-rack units in at the base with sheet metal screws or used the adhesive velcro system.

Thanks again JT. Also AVID, folks who are listening, others too with chronic pain who can't work at a traditional desk please add your support. Added -- I noticed an ANSI standard reading my manual (Teac Pro Mixers sold to radio stations worldwide.) Are support attachments for the new Euphonix line, Pro Control, compatible with the Peerless products? And/or is this field or Ergononics uncharted territory i.e. not as a built in? Found one link http://www.hfes.org/Publications/Pro...x?ProductID=69
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

Quote:
So all of that gear, LCD monitors, ASCii keyboard, 25 key controller and the NS-10s are all supported by the Nethrone itself?
Yes, The speakers off to the side are not attached to it, but the NS-10s are on there. The triple monitor mount is an add on to the nethrone itself, but it's not bad, under $300 if I remember right. with the weight of the NS-10s, imac and 2 other monitors, the nethrone's electric tilt/lift motors are a little bit over worked, but I never adjust that part anyways.

Interface, Power amps, PC's and rack gear are also obviously not attached.

Quote:
I rack the gear and patch bay. Are you using any type of 'Gold Line' monitor controller pre-amp to switch speakers? I see you have three pairs.
The TC electronic SK48 interface allows me to set it up for up to 3 pairs of speakers. I can control this from the remote(right by my mouse) or the TC near software. At the moment, I'm actually only using 2 pairs of speakers but when I move into the new space I will probably get a switcher so that I can switch between the 3 pairs of passive monitors with a single power amp.

Quote:
Thanks again. Those pictures are very helpful. I have a Tascam Reel to Reel rack (8 Track removed) whose top pivots to a few angles or can be set upright (a lot of rack space) and is on wheels, a power amp can also be separately racked at its base. I've seen these online still, well very similar. Probably not anywhere as sturdily constructed.
I have also considered using one of those for a rack. Most important for me is gaining access to an 88 key keyboard controller first, but once that's sorted I actually think those old reel to reel racks are probably the most ideal setup, I've tried a few slant racks and they are never the right angle or height.
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If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:28 PM
aka21stCentury aka21stCentury is offline
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Default Re: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

Here are some more options:

Motorized Height Adjustable Stands & Tables:
http://www.ergobuyer.com/index.cfm/p...orkstation.cfm

Tilt roll under chair stands for controllers, small keyboards, etc http://sitincomfort.com/homofdesandw.html


http://www.ergobuyer.com/index.cfm/p...tion-combo.cfm

Also Sears is now carrying the zero gravity chairs one can check out before investing in the motorized model (also the price is half what is used to be). I bought the Northwest Territory folding version (it folds flat and leaves the studio uncluttered) actually steel, not aluminum, and very well designed, locking in any tilted position, a foot rest, adjustable neck pad, and raised up a bit you can still get at your foot pedals.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/search_10...ravity%20chair

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...80000P?prdNo=6

Footrest chair stand for sit or stand workstations; http://www.ergobuyer.com/index.cfm/p...exteptrade.cfm
http://www.ergotron.com/Products/tab...S/Default.aspx
http://www.ergobuyer.com/index.cfm?f...uctnewfeatured

Hal W. Hendrick, P.h.D passed away this year. A pioneer in ergonomics. Link to his book:
"It All Begins With Self: How to Become a More Effective and Happier You!"
http://www.ergoweb.com/news/detail.cfm?id=2561

This was just announced yesterday:

A symposium is planned in the Seattle area (Museum of Flight) September 14th,15th, 2011 on Ergonomics in the workplace. I hope AVID/Euphonix mechanical design engineers can represent DAW users, many who are aging and in pain (and sometimes cranky). Well... actually a lot cranky. So thanks for your patience.
http://www.ergoweb.com/news/detail.cfm?id=2561
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Back, Neck disability? Design help. New stands?

Actually had an ergotron workfit at my last job. It was donated to us by a customer who worked for ergotron. It worked really well for moving a laptop around.
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