Alternatives to Pro Tools - Pro and Cons

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

While Pro Tools has its shortcomings, I've always found everything else to be even worse. If you think about it, the DAW is the cheapest thing we use. Most of us have way more invested just in plug-ins. If something was really better overall, I can assure you we'd have all switched to it.

Have to disagree. I think a lot of people stay with PT because it's expected in many people's minds that that is what you use and nothing else. And there's probably a lot of people that stay with PT because they can't be bothered to check out something else that just might be better for their workflow. And there's some that just won't admit the emperor has no clothes. People don't have to be PT lemmings.

That being said I do love PT but I'm also realistic enough to realize there are other daws out there that deserve a chance to be used. DP for one and DP9 was announced at NAMM. Much easier to score to picture than PT for many.

I think if you press those in the big studios that they'll admit they also use other daw s/w as well and would go to that full time but because PT is the 800 pound gorilla in the room they don't.

[Bob Olhsson]

Certainly all of us use other DAWs too. In my case it's Samplitude. It's brilliant for mastering but hasn't got the collaboration features and transportability between studios that Pro Tools has. That's the biggest problem with most of the others. Samplitude also doesn't have the audio file integrity issues I've experienced in MIDI sequencer-based DAWs. When I hit the record button, I want writing flawless audio to take priority over MIDI timing.

[Michael Zull]

I might have to give DP a looksy, and I agree with most of what Niner said above specifically about other DAWs. I'm shocked, quite honestly, at how poorly the UIs and workflows are of other leading DAWs. I suppose any DAW gets the job done if you know it well enough, but I have yet to find one that edits audio nearly as well (Logic X is a joke in this regard) or has an uncluttered, intuitive UI. PT has it's complexities but the meat and potatoes of it are genius in their simplicity.

YMMV, don't want to start a DAW preference flame war here

[propower]

Originally Posted by Michael Zull

I might have to give DP a looksy, and I agree with most of what Niner said above specifically about other DAWs. I'm shocked, quite honestly, at how poorly the UIs and workflows are of other leading DAWs. I suppose any DAW gets the job done if you know it well enough, but I have yet to find one that edits audio nearly as well (Logic X is a joke in this regard) or has an uncluttered, intuitive UI. PT has it's complexities but the meat and potatoes of it are genius in their simplicity.

YMMV, don't want to start a DAW preference flame war here

Yes - when the subscription stuff came up at AES I checked out Logic DP and Studio One. I preferred PT layout and basic operation by a large margin over all of them.

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by seafoam green

Interesting Bill , In what ways is your midi workflow improved from using cubase ?

(I am only familiar with pro tools and have only heard that other DAW's are regarded as better suited for midi work , but I have not heard the specifics why ? )



Also Bill , you mention a desire to also upgrade to Pro Tools 11 (ie; if your cash flow permits)
- So obviously You still want to stay with pro Tools to an extent - Why is that Bill ?
- Is it because ; Pro Tools does things that Cubase doesnt ?, or is it because Pro tools does some things a lot better than Cubase can manage ? ..., if so what would these be .

and ..., Thanks also for your comments and contributions Bill (and the others)

it will also be interesting to hear how you settle in to cubase after a while , and to hear how /or if cubase it has shaped the way your work for the better (or not)

So far, my MIDI experience with both Pro Tools and Cubase has been very limited...

With Pro Tools, I was mostly doing guitar/bass/drums "band" type stuff...the few times I tried to do MIDI on Pro Tools it just didn't feel "right" to me, so I didn't mess with it much.

When PT 10 came out with its exorbitant upgrade costs while still being 32-bit, I started looking around a bit. I tried Reaper, but since I work in IT I have something of an aversion to "open source" stuff. I just happened to see Cubase elements at a time when I had $50 (or whatever it was) available. I had heard a lot about Cubase's MIDI capabilities so that was the first thing I looked at, and it just seemed like everything worked the way I would like it to work. It's one of those nebulous things...kind of like how when you put on a new pair of shoes and they just feel great (I'm old...that kind of shoe sh*t matters!)

At that time I was still messing with "band" stuff, but I decided that if the time came to switch, I would do it to Cubase.

Over the last few months I've felt like Avid was moving away from the "small" guys like me...I've also been hearing some non-band music that I've found interesting...a "throw away" song I wrote 25 years ago may be leading to some jingle stuff...all in all, it just felt like the time to make a jump.

As far as wanting to upgrade to PT 11 (and not being able to afford it) goes, I just wanted to be able to get to a 64-bit version...I didn't have any specific plans going forward, but over the holidays a younger family member told me he and some of high-school buddies were jamming a bit and wanted to know if they could come over sometime and cut a few tracks...I would like to have 64-bit Pro Tools around to use for stuff like that.

But I will make it a point to check back in after a couple of months to do a "compare and contrast" thing on the MIDI stuff.

And thanks for asking...

[mbourque]

I use Pro Tools, Live and Cubase. Pro Tools mainly for post production, Live and Cubase to compose. I really like the way Cubase has turned since v7. The things that bug me most are the way to navigate thru the project.

Example, to tab from clip to clip and then hit "q" or "w" to centre the screen to the cursor position. It's not as easy to do it in Cubase. Also, there's no way I found to "trim from start" or "trim from end". Those little tricks make the job so easy in PT.

For the rest, the tools in Cubase are really neat and well done. I like the expression maps (even if it's quite a job to program them). The key commands are all definable, you can even create macros.

I know many people complain about the stability of v8, but to me it is stable.

At home, I have PT9, and I don't know yet if I will upgrade. I'm using it to "master" my songs because I like the McDSP ML4000, which is not available - yet, 2 months to go - in VST format.

To work with video, I still prefer PT. Anyway, I don't have the choice where I work

Live has useful tools and can stimulate you creativity, but is a mess to deal with midi compare to Cubase.

[Dave Lang]

Been using PT since the PTIII days and really know the user interface. Zoom, cut, nudge, drag, insert plugin, make reverb bus, volume envelope, etc. etc. etc.

Can any of the other DAWs be made to work this way? I've tried Logic but it feels like driving drunk. I can get around on PC in Sony Vegas, but it's also frustrating.

I don't do post anymore, just small time audio mix / record. Do all my midi outside of PT so don't care about that. Never, even when doing post, used the mix window, don't need to see faders, edit window is where I live.

Any suggestions? Cross my fingers and hope that PT gets sorted?

I know that Reaper was working on "skins" or themes or something that made it look / feel like PT but can't find any info on that that isn't 2 years old.

Checked out Cubase but v8.5 sounds quite buggy and they just slipped their promised availability date for a demo version. Plus, they ship you a box like it's 1999 instead of letting you download the software.

Maybe the problems we're experiencing with Avid aren't so unique to Avid, and are more a sign of the times we're living in?

[Whitepoem]

CUBASE 7
Cubase certainly still is one of the most popular DAW choices of composers who write to picture and Steinberg has demonstrated it is in it for the long haul.
Likes:
Users praise its stability, with some exceptions of course. Most praise its innovative Expression Maps feature, which allows you to control articulations and dynamics in a simpler way than its competitors. They like that Cubase still supports both 64 bit and 32 bit VST 2 and VST 3. It also allows for multiple controller lanes, preset searching ability, and the ability to have your count in to the meter you are going to with meter changes. Also, Cubase is cross platform and runs well on both macs and PCs.
Dislikes:
By far, the most common dislike is that Cubase requires a dongle, the Steinberg key. A source of dislike, but also a like from some users, is the look of its interface, particularly its Mixer. Some called it cluttered, cartoonish, etc. Cubase does not have a hide tracks feature or region looping, both highly desired features by some users.
Logic Pro X
Like Cubase, Logic Pro certainly still is one of the most popular DAW choices of composers who write to picture but many people worry about whether Apple is it is in it for the long haul, because it makes so much more money from iPhones, iPads, and iPods.
Likes:
Users generally praise Logic Pro’s stability. Logic Pro gets high marks for its included software instruments, Apple Loops, and FX, all at a bargain price now that it is sold as a downloadable product for only $199 from the App Store. Users also praise its CPU efficiency, with some exceptions of course. It has a solid score editor that is used by many who do not wish to use a dedicated score app like Finale or Sibelius. For power users, there are things that can be done in Logic Pro’s Environment that cannot really be done in any other app.
Dislikes:
It is not cross platform. Dislikes include that you can only create batch fades by going to the Inspector, not with the Fade tool or by key command and the lack of quantizing with key command options. Certain long time complaints, like the inability to have the metronome beat dotted quarters in 12/8, count in at a new tempo, etc. that have never been addressed. But by far, the most common dislike is that Logic Pro X, as was true of it predecessors, is not very multi-timbral friendly. When a software instrument is armed, all the patches within get handled by the last core. So if it is a multi-timbral instrument with several big patches, that core will spike. Also, Logic Pro reserves volume (cc7) and panning host automation for the software instruments themselves and does not address these discretely for the patches inside. There are workarounds but it is frustrating for many.
Digital Performer 8
I was surprised that I did not receive more responses from Digital Performer users, since many high profile film and TV scorers use it, and it was one of the first sequencers for the Mac, and now there is also a PC version. However, it does not seem that it is widely used outside of the U.S.
Likes:
Digital Performer is now cross platform. Of all the DAWs, Digital Performer arguably has targeted film and TV composers more than any other. First, users love its “Chunks” feature, making it very practical to have multiple cues in a single project, which is incredibly handy. It has a very flexible Conductor tack and will generate punches and streamers. Its built in ability to plot hit points is second to none in its users opinion. It has a feature called V-Racks that allows you to build virtual instrument racks that can be accessed by all the chunks in a project, so there is no reloading when switching cues. Like Logic Pro, it also does not require a dongle.
Dislikes:
There has been no PC version until recently and I got no feedback from anyone using it on a PC, so the jury is out. Certain long time complaints, like the inability to mute notes, import data from project to project, and create MIDI groove templates have apparently not been addressed. In the past, it has not used software instruments as efficiently as Cubase or Logic Pro. One user complained that the time stretching algorithms were not on a par with some others. Another said the score editor lacked too many symbols to properly print out parts and scores, like accents, staccatos, percussion note heads, etc.
Pro Tools 11
It is frequently said that Pro Tools has always been the industry standard and that is true for client-based recording studios and post houses but has been far less true for composers, simply because for years it had no MIDI capabilities. But in recent years, the developers have been playing catch up in his area big time and have won over a fair amount of users who used other DAWS for MIDI while using Pro Tools for audio.
With an expensive Pro Tools HD system, the latency is the lowest of any DAW and probably the most bullet-proof. However, for this column I will be talking about the native version, so that we are comparing apples to apples.
Likes:
Pro Tools is now cross platform. Every user who uses multiple DAWs told me the same thing: audio editing in Pro Tools is simply quicker and more intuitive than the others. Its playlists, Smart tool, and clip gain features make it very flexible and when your film/TV show/ is being mixed, it is probably being mixed in Pro Tools so going back and forth for revisions is simpler. Users like its VCA implementation for groups and easy.
Dislikes:
It not only requires an iLok dongle, it requires an iLok 2.
Upgrades can be relatively expensive. While the MIDI abilities continue to be upgraded with each release, it is still missing some features available in most DAWs like keyboard shortcuts for transposing by octaves, legato, etc. Its MIDI playlists behave quite differently from its audio playlists. It has no dedicated MIDI drum editor.
Sonar X2
Once again, I was surprised that I did not receive more responses. Perhaps it is not as widely used by film and TV scorers. Present users mostly said they continued to use it because it is intuitive, and they know it well and it does all they need it to do. Some previous users told me that there was nothing really wrong with Sonar, but eventually they tried a competitor’s DAWs and found that they did everything Sonar did, but better.
NOTE: X3 is now out but too recent for many users to have formed accurate impressions.
Reaper 4
This is one of the new kids in town and is winning a lot of converts.
Likes:
It is cross platform. It is cheap and does not require a dongle. It is highly customizable with lots of skins to make it look the way you want it to look. Users praised its small size, lack of ”fussiness” and for a new DAW, stability. There is no such thing as a MIDI track, audio track, or bus/aux track. Any track can be any of the above. You can route almost anything to almost anything.
Dislikes:
It does not come with sample/virtual instrument content. It can be confusing to people coming from other DAWs since it does things in ways that are very different from most other DAWs.

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=11887

[Marcel Risberg]

I'm keeping my eyes on Pyramix and Nuendo for reasons of post work. Would love to hear some pros and cons from switchers.

I don't need to switch just yet, my PT11 rig is functioning quite okay as of this time. But, should Avid make the keeping my HD license to difficult and infected I will just choose another tool work my work. Not that complicated.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Whitepoem

Digital Performer 8
I was surprised that I did not receive more responses from Digital Performer users, since many high profile film and TV scorers use it, and it was one of the first sequencers for the Mac, and now there is also a PC version. However, it does not seem that it is widely used outside of the U.S.
Likes:
Digital Performer is now cross platform. Of all the DAWs, Digital Performer arguably has targeted film and TV composers more than any other. First, users love its “Chunks” feature, making it very practical to have multiple cues in a single project, which is incredibly handy. It has a very flexible Conductor tack and will generate punches and streamers. Its built in ability to plot hit points is second to none in its users opinion. It has a feature called V-Racks that allows you to build virtual instrument racks that can be accessed by all the chunks in a project, so there is no reloading when switching cues. Like Logic Pro, it also does not require a dongle.
Dislikes:
There has been no PC version until recently and I got no feedback from anyone using it on a PC, so the jury is out. Certain long time complaints, like the inability to mute notes, import data from project to project, and create MIDI groove templates have apparently not been addressed. In the past, it has not used software instruments as efficiently as Cubase or Logic Pro. One user complained that the time stretching algorithms were not on a par with some others. Another said the score editor lacked too many symbols to properly print out parts and scores, like accents, staccatos, percussion note heads, etc.

Sonar X2
Once again, I was surprised that I did not receive more responses. Perhaps it is not as widely used by film and TV scorers. Present users mostly said they continued to use it because it is intuitive, and they know it well and it does all they need it to do. Some previous users told me that there was nothing really wrong with Sonar, but eventually they tried a competitor’s DAWs and found that they did everything Sonar did, but better.
NOTE: X3 is now out but too recent for many users to have formed accurate impressions.

DP9 is due out soon with a bunch of new stuff and updates to old bits and bobs. No one knows for sure exactly what's in there and we're all waiting. MOTU usually has a generous deal going as to amnesty for purchases of DP8 vis-a-vis timing of a new version of DP dropping.

Something missing from Sonar and will never happen is dual platform support; it's strictly Windows only. I say that Mac will never happen because that issue has been brought up numerous times on the Cakewalk Sonar forums and gets denied by CW people and shot down by just about everyone that posts on the forums. They're very xenophobic when it comes to Sonar going Mac despite CW coding some of the vi's as dual platform.