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  #1  
Old 03-16-2013, 10:12 AM
rus5 rus5 is offline
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Default Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

I sent "Audio Ease" an email a few days ago asking them if they were ever going to port Altiverb 7 to AAX-DSP. I quickly received the candid response from Aram Verwoest directly quoted below (with their permission):

"Thanks for your message. We are currently working closely with AVID to find out how we can accomplish this (Altiverb AAX DSP). This is because the current AAX DSP infrastructure is not ready for a plug-in with the capabilities like Altiverb TDM. This is a large project and will take serious development time. Altiverb 7 AAX Native will therefore come first, to make sure everyone can keep on using Altiverb 7 (also in Pro Tools 11 and on). But do rest assured, we are working on AAX DSP."

So of course its great news that they intend to support AAX-DSP once they figure out how to do it. But the rest of it is absolutely amazing !! They're specifically saying that not only is it hard to write to AAX-DSP contradicting the story Avid has been telling everyone from the beginning ("... will take serious development time"), but it's "not ready for a plug-in the capabilities like Altiverb TDM" !!! Meaning, as it stands, HDX isn't even capable of supporting what HD can, at least in this case!! Think of all the things Avid has told us (especially at the PT10 launch) that this direct measurement of reality contradicts.
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:51 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

If writing for AAX dsp is so difficult how can a one man shop like McDSP be coming out with their AAX stuff so quickly? Altiverb is dragging their feet just like they always do. At least, as you say, it's a good sign they are at least working on AAX native.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:15 AM
rus5 rus5 is offline
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

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Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
If writing for AAX dsp is so difficult how can a one man shop like McDSP be coming out with their AAX stuff so quickly? Altiverb is dragging their feet just like they always do. At least, as you say, it's a good sign they are at least working on AAX native.
Based on what Avid was saying at the PT10 launch around Thanksgiving 2011, McDSP's Colin McDowell and therefore everyone else expected they'd have ported that entire line by the end of Q2 2012 at the latest. Instead it turned out to be HUGELY more difficult than he thought which is why we're nearly a year and a half into it and he still has only released about 1/2 of them. McDSP is definitely not "coming out with their AAX stuff so quickly" by even the wildest stretch of the imagination.

And Massey, and UA, and Flux::, and URS, and East West, and Sonnox, and Antares, and Melodyne, and Sound Toys, and Eventide, and Lexicon, and on and on and on are ALSO just under a year and a half out making slow if any progress. Only a couple of those companies have even gotten their FIRST AAX-DSP port out. iZotope is saying they probably won't EVER take it on (which is especially bad news). Avid themselves sold their own entire "Air" line rather than port them to AAX, let alone AAX-DSP. And of course, the most important of them all, Waves, threw in the towel completely and isn't going to port any of their plugs to AAX-DSP at all. Ever. They specifically said they gave up because porting to AAX-DSP was too difficult. There is absolutely no case whatsoever that porting to AAX-DSP is not difficult.
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Old 03-16-2013, 02:26 PM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

Quote:
Originally Posted by rus5 View Post
Based on what Avid was saying at the PT10 launch around Thanksgiving 2011, McDSP's Colin McDowell and therefore everyone else expected they'd have ported that entire line by the end of Q2 2012 at the latest. Instead it turned out to be HUGELY more difficult than he thought which is why we're nearly a year and a half into it and he still has only released about 1/2 of them. McDSP is definitely not "coming out with their AAX stuff so quickly" by even the wildest stretch of the imagination.
You are refusing to acknowledge that Colin is coming out with his stuff way faster than Audio Ease. He's got more stuff to port than AE who only have what 2 plugs? Colin already has AAX native and has public beta AAX dsp as I understand it. So it's taking longer than some want but still it's happening for some plugin vendors who aren't afraid to get their elbows dirty with code. The difficulty isn't what's really holding AE back; like a lot of vendors they don't see the need to get AAX and AAX dsp out now.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

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Originally Posted by rus5 View Post
And Massey, and UA, and Flux::, and URS, and East West, and Sonnox, and Antares, and Melodyne, and Sound Toys, and Eventide, and Lexicon, and on and on and on are ALSO just under a year and a half out making slow if any progress. Only a couple of those companies have even gotten their FIRST AAX-DSP port out. iZotope is saying they probably won't EVER take it on (which is especially bad news). Avid themselves sold their own entire "Air" line rather than port them to AAX, let alone AAX-DSP. And of course, the most important of them all, Waves, threw in the towel completely and isn't going to port any of their plugs to AAX-DSP at all. Ever. They specifically said they gave up because porting to AAX-DSP was too difficult. There is absolutely no case whatsoever that porting to AAX-DSP is not difficult.
Avid sold the Air team, true. But they do have a deal with iNMusic that will have them continue working on the Air plugin line that is with Pro tools, which does mean AAX versions of the plugs, only remains to be seen if they will be DSP but I'd suspect they will since it's probably part of the deal, although I have no firm information about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
Thanks doing this rus. Altiverb is an essential plug-in for me so it's good to hear it will make it to HDX albeit with a long wait! It's less encouraging to hear yet another company is having difficulties optimising for HDX

With TDM, the longer the reverb time the more chips Altiverb takes up. I was told this was because of the very limited amount of memory available per 56k chip. There is 4x the amount of memory per chip with HDX so you would have thought this would be less of an issue.
If this is the issue, then it's not an issue of Ram amount anymore, its the fact that their plugin is coded to use more dsp chips to compensate for the lack of ram. They should rewrite their plugin the other way around, Use less dsp chips but more direct ram.
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  #6  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:08 AM
DaveTremblay DaveTremblay is offline
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

Hey guys.

Let me shed some light on this. TL Space and Altiverb both used a "hack" called chip spanning on the HD cards to create a convolution reverb. I call it a hack because these plug-ins were using some exposed functionality of DAE to trick the system into doing chip spanning. Not only is this sort of exposure difficult to support as engines improve over time, it also resulted in plug-ins that took nearly an entire HD card, which we didn't think was a great solution for HDX. We had a much better idea in mind when discussing this "feature-parity" with HD. We have implemented this already and are working with AudioEase and others on how to use this new system.

I'll be the first to admit that we haven't done the best job of communicating our technical direction and vision. We're going to try to fix that soon. In the mean-time, let me add a couple of more comments. When we look at making DSP based systems, we're not looking at competing with the power of a 12 core Westmere processor. We're looking at adding processing resources to the system that have unique advantages. Intel processors are great because they have a huge amount of power, if you use them at high latency. They also aren't that deterministic, as you all know. DSPs provide an additional resource that have some unique advantages. They do have additional power to offload processing, but I think the more interesting traits are the incredibly low latency and determinism of the chips. As technologists, we think that is a cool capability that we can provide to our customers that need or want it. And you flat out can't get those capabilities with a Native only DAW. Looking forward, we're trying to provide cool ways to bridge those advantages so you can take advantage of all of the best traits of the individual hardware resources. More on that soon...

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Old 03-24-2013, 05:57 PM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emcha_audio View Post
If this is the issue, then it's not an issue of Ram amount anymore, its the fact that their plugin is coded to use more dsp chips to compensate for the lack of ram. They should rewrite their plugin the other way around, Use less dsp chips but more direct ram.
I think the point rus5 is making is that it was supposed to be easier to write/port to HDX than it was to code for TDM! It sounds like Audioease has some significant engineering hurdles to overcome in porting to HDX despite having more RAM available per chip. It's not just Audioease who appear to be struggling. Nearly 18 months since the release of HDX, McDSP and Sonnox are still having issues with instance counts compared to Avid who I now see is claiming up to 8x performance per card over TDM!

DaveTremblay wrote:
Quote:
....Additionally, many of these companies really shifted their focus to Native in the past few years. There is no doubt it is easier to write a purely Native plug-in. Our focus on AAX-DSP was really more of an attempt to make DSP development way easier than TDM ever was and I believe we've achieved that goal. In fact, there isn't a single company that has told me AAX DSP is more work than TDM. Quite the opposite. I talked to a bunch of plug-in companies at NAMM and several said that they wouldn't have even bothered to try to get their plug-ins on TDM, either due to difficulty or power. And those companies are or will be shipping AAX-DSP.
I have to say I'm a bit confused and concerned by this. It sounds like there's a considerable disconnect between what HDX developers are saying to Avid and the disappointing plug-in counts some key third party developers are achieving.

I'm really not trying to score points here but just a few weeks ago I pointed out that Sonnox were getting dire HDX instance counts in some cases. There are clearly some major performance discrepancies. What bothers me is that this was news to Avid. I'm aware there is a known issue with McDSP's HDX plug-ins but that doesn't square up with a format that is supposed to be easy to port to.

So McDSP and Sonnox are clearly having issues with their HDX ports. Waves have bailed on HDX completely because it simply can't see a return on porting 200+ plug-ins given it's knowledge of the dealer channel and how well it sees HDX selling. Waves just doesn't see how it can possibly pass on the cost of the 72 man years it would take to port to HDX.

Yes I know this has been debated ad nausea here and elsewhere but FAR too many TDM plug-ins will never make it to HDX, a worrying number of key developers are failing to commit to HDX or are taking a LONG time to get product to market, and some major players that have made it to HDX are struggling to optimise performance and get anywhere near the up to x5 and even x8 performance Avid is now claiming of HDX. Avid is understandably going to cherry pick best case scenarios. Unfortunately, the best sounding plug-ins are at the other end of the spectrum in many cases.

If you also factor in worryingly sluggish HDX sales judging by Avid's audio product revenue for the first three quarters of 2012, and if many developers are shifting their focus to native then I fear HDX will become a niche product rather than the ubiquitous industry standard TDM became regardless of it's undoubted strengths over TDM....

And what happens if the new Macs turn out to be ridiculously fast and PT11 catches up the Logic in terms of CPU efficiency? Does that not further embed HDX at the niche end of the market. For that matter, doesn't HD Native? And if HD Native is a viable option then so is a UAD Apollo.

I realise Avid is now focusing it's attention on the pro end of the market place but if I'm right, can it really afford to have its it's flagship audio product marginalised to the largest post pro facilities and very top end studios with a ton of outboard.

From where I'm sitting, there is simply not a significant enough benefit to justify upgrading from HD3 to HDX, especially when you factor in all those many TDM plug-ins that seem consigned to history. This is a major disappointment for me as I'm not currently seeing an upgrade path for my TDM system and a problem for Avid in that it is not making a sale.

I see an HDX upgrade like this.... my virtual studio would have more tracks and a bigger desk but my outboard rack would be a fraction of it's current size and capability.

Times have changed but I'd rather Avid's flagship audio product remain the industry standard. Avid need to find a way of making that happen in an age were native systems are becoming ever more powerful. IMO, it could start by using it's cash reserves and maybe even take on some debt to radically cut the price of HDX, make it appealing to the masses who might otherwise buy an Apollo and give it a firm foothold in the market place. As the old saying goes, you have to speculate to accumulate. As things stand, Avid is floundering in so many ways it's scary. None of us want that.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

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Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post

If you also factor in worryingly sluggish HDX sales...........

That is definitely not what I'm hearing from the local resellers.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:42 PM
rus5 rus5 is offline
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
I think the point rus5 is making is that it was supposed to be easier to write/port to HDX than it was to code for TDM! It sounds like Audioease has some significant engineering hurdles to overcome in porting to HDX despite having more RAM available per chip. It's not just Audioease who appear to be struggling. Nearly 18 months since the release of HDX, McDSP and Sonnox are still having issues with instance counts compared to Avid who I now see is claiming up to 8x performance per card over TDM!

DaveTremblay wrote:


I have to say I'm a bit confused and concerned by this. It sounds like there's a considerable disconnect between what HDX developers are saying to Avid and the disappointing plug-in counts some key third party developers are achieving.

I'm really not trying to score points here but just a few weeks ago I pointed out that Sonnox were getting dire HDX instance counts in some cases. There are clearly some major performance discrepancies. What bothers me is that this was news to Avid. I'm aware there is a known issue with McDSP's HDX plug-ins but that doesn't square up with a format that is supposed to be easy to port to.

So McDSP and Sonnox are clearly having issues with their HDX ports. Waves have bailed on HDX completely because it simply can't see a return on porting 200+ plug-ins given it's knowledge of the dealer channel and how well it sees HDX selling. Waves just doesn't see how it can possibly pass on the cost of the 72 man years it would take to port to HDX.

Yes I know this has been debated ad nausea here and elsewhere but FAR too many TDM plug-ins will never make it to HDX, a worrying number of key developers are failing to commit to HDX or are taking a LONG time to get product to market, and some major players that have made it to HDX are struggling to optimise performance and get anywhere near the up to x5 and even x8 performance Avid is now claiming of HDX. Avid is understandably going to cherry pick best case scenarios. Unfortunately, the best sounding plug-ins are at the other end of the spectrum in many cases.

If you also factor in worryingly sluggish HDX sales judging by Avid's audio product revenue for the first three quarters of 2012, and if many developers are shifting their focus to native then I fear HDX will become a niche product rather than the ubiquitous industry standard TDM became regardless of it's undoubted strengths over TDM....

And what happens if the new Macs turn out to be ridiculously fast and PT11 catches up the Logic in terms of CPU efficiency? Does that not further embed HDX at the niche end of the market. For that matter, doesn't HD Native? And if HD Native is a viable option then so is a UAD Apollo.

I realise Avid is now focusing it's attention on the pro end of the market place but if I'm right, can it really afford to have its it's flagship audio product marginalised to the largest post pro facilities and very top end studios with a ton of outboard.

From where I'm sitting, there is simply not a significant enough benefit to justify upgrading from HD3 to HDX, especially when you factor in all those many TDM plug-ins that seem consigned to history. This is a major disappointment for me as I'm not currently seeing an upgrade path for my TDM system and a problem for Avid in that it is not making a sale.

I see an HDX upgrade like this.... my virtual studio would have more tracks and a bigger desk but my outboard rack would be a fraction of it's current size and capability.

Times have changed but I'd rather Avid's flagship audio product remain the industry standard. Avid need to find a way of making that happen in an age were native systems are becoming ever more powerful. IMO, it could start by using it's cash reserves and maybe even take on some debt to radically cut the price of HDX, make it appealing to the masses who might otherwise buy an Apollo and give it a firm foothold in the market place. As the old saying goes, you have to speculate to accumulate. As things stand, Avid is floundering in so many ways it's scary. None of us want that.
Man, gotta agree with Marsdy here. And the thing is, it isn't doing anybody any good to keep trying to believe this isn't all the case. As has been said before (I think by Marsdy among others), if enough people, stock holders in particular, would voice their concerns, the Avid board of directors would probably have to make the difficult changes at Avid that pretty much seem essential at this point. Despite more than a factor of ten decline in their stock price (that's DIVIDE BY 10 !!) while the rest of the stock market has been soaring, people are still trying to pretend that somehow things are just fine at Avid.

Have you guys read this:

http://m.bizjournals.com/boston/blog...a=yfcpc&r=full

It says Nasdaq sent a letter to Avid last Friday warning them they're at risk of being delisted if they don't provide last year's financial report that they declined to submit a few weeks back. What is it going to take for people to stop pretending about this??
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:48 PM
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TOM@METRO TOM@METRO is offline
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Default Re: Altiverb 7 and AAX-DSP

Well Dave, you offer a question worth an answer here. Regarding availability of DSP/AAX Plug-ins, Unfortunately, I am not the guy with that answer. But I do kinda’ wish I had a crystal ball on the subject. My hope is that when PT11 hits the streets we will see most of the Plug-ins to which you refer materialize.

If we do not, there may be cause for concern, but we are not there yet, so perhaps it's a little premature to start the panic.

As to the popularity of HDX, it it is being touted as coming alive with the next PT release. Perhaps we should see what happens with that before we declare it less than successful.

I’m just sayin', because we are so close, it may serve us well to hold negativity in check. This year will likely tell the tale.
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