Join vs. Capture+ Punch Capture....

[colinweeks]

So, i just upgraded to 7.3 and found that join had stopped working like it had in 7.2... i found this on digidesign.com:

In Pro Tools 7.2, the Join command inadvertently included automation parameter values. In Pro Tools 7.3 and higher, the Join command reverts to the established Pro Tools 6.9–7.1 behavior. To simulate the Pro Tools 7.2 Join command behavior, use "Capture" and "Punch Capture" instead of "Join.”


anyhow, i was wondering: why would you want to NOT include automation parameter values when joining? what's the benefit of putting parameters in write without the values you want?

it seems like capture + punch capture just adds an extra step...

just wondering pratical application of both methods...

thanks

[Chris Lambrechts]

I'm wondering in what context that is written ? The 2 are very different things and thus allow you to do very essential different things as well ....

One of the beauties of the capture / preview process is that you are not actually writting automation until you actually decide to punch write it.

As for practical use .... maye 2 very simple examples of something one can do but the other can't.

1. join : let's asume transport is running and you're in latch write mode.

- grab the fader on channel 1 and write some volume automation.
- after that pan write some volume automation on track 2
- now go back and write some volume automation on track 1
- and again write some volume autmation on track 1

- and now push join. Result .... both track 1 and 2 volumes will 'join' whatever level they were at before you started writing automation on it. But whatever fader moves you made in time on both tracks are there ... just like you intended them to be.

2. capture / punch capture : this time you want to change the eq that's on a vocal ... but only on the chorus for example.

- make a time selection so you can loop playback the chorus and start tranport
- change the EQ of vocal untill you're happy with the way it sounds for the chorus and then stop transport.

Now you basically have that new setting for the EQ stored in the punch buffer. When you press punch capture it will start writing that setting to that track.
So basically when you start tranport again it will start writing whatever it is that you changed ... or you can just punch and write it to your selection.

There are a bizzilion of practical uses for both join and capture / puch capture and I'm sure you can come up with some of your own once you understand what it is they do. Even combining both. Like you could position yourself at the beginning of that chorus and start playback ... and at the end of the chorus you press the join button to have the eq go back to the settings it had before the chorus.

D control this way for example also allows you to store a bunch of different snapshots settings that you have to be able to repeat throughout a mix at different point in time.

Oh ... before I forget .... as with join or writing automation in general ... of course the parameters you want to include need to be automation enabled. for an eq for example this is not allways the case ... which is why for convenience of using these modes ... they added a pref that allows you to enable plugin parameters by default when you insert them.

Hope that helps a bit. Understanding and realising what these things do is of course essential to realize how powerfull they are.

[colinweeks]

One of the beauties of the capture / preview process is that you are not actually writting automation until you actually decide to punch write it.

well, both join and the capture/punch capture process require that you are (or were) writing automation before they can be used... that's how automation parameters get put into the buffer, eh? preview is a whole nother ball of yarn... ( and a great one)

As for practical use .... maye 2 very simple examples of something one can do but the other can't.

1. join : let's asume transport is running and you're in latch write mode.

- grab the fader on channel 1 and write some volume automation.
- after that pan write some volume automation on track 2
- now go back and write some volume automation on track 1
- and again write some volume autmation on track 1

- and now push join. Result .... both track 1 and 2 volumes will 'join' whatever level they were at before you started writing automation on it. But whatever fader moves you made in time on both tracks are there ... just like you intended them to be.

hmmmm... i can't quite wrap my brain around your example and sitting in front of the icon it doesn't appear to be doing what you describe... what join appears to be doing from my perspective is putting whatever objects that were writing automation during the last pass back into write, but without changing them to their last set values.... i.e. fader goes into write at whatever value it is at when i hit join, not at what level it was at when i last stopped writing automation.

2. capture / punch capture : this time you want to change the eq that's on a vocal ... but only on the chorus for example.

- make a time selection so you can loop playback the chorus and start tranport
- change the EQ of vocal untill you're happy with the way it sounds for the chorus and then stop transport.

Now you basically have that new setting for the EQ stored in the punch buffer. When you press punch capture it will start writing that setting to that track.
So basically when you start tranport again it will start writing whatever it is that you changed ... or you can just punch and write it to your selection.

this is exactly how join worked in 7.2 (providing you weren't looping... preview would work for that)... but i didn't need to remember to hit capture everytime i rolled back.... i could just keep hitting join, tweaking some more, rolling back, hitting join, tweaking some more, etc... this was also how the SSL Avant dealt with join...

i'm just trying to figure out why you'd want (or need) your automatable objects to go into write without their automation values going with them...

[Chris Lambrechts]

hmmmm... i can't quite wrap my brain around your example and sitting in front of the icon it doesn't appear to be doing what you describe... what join appears to be doing from my perspective is putting whatever objects that were writing automation during the last pass back into write, but without changing them to their last set values.... i.e. fader goes into write at whatever value it is at when i hit join, not at what level it was at when i last stopped writing automation.

yes .... basically manual join will resume writing at the level or value the fader or encoder is at when you press join.

but i didn't need to remember to hit capture everytime i rolled back.... i could just keep hitting join, tweaking some more, rolling back, hitting join, tweaking some more, etc... this was also how the SSL Avant dealt with join...

i'm just trying to figure out why you'd want (or need) your automatable objects to go into write without their automation values going with them...

I;m starting to see where you come from and understand your confusion now .... I didn't at first.

This should help though ;

- Join and autojoin are in many ways more restricted to conditions then capture / punch capture

I think you can still use join the way you used to use it. I dont' think it changed or am I missing something ? Hitting join will instantly start writing whatever parameters were writing during the last pass and resume writing from the exact position and value you hit join. It has allways acted that way.

Punch capture for one will include all parameters that were stored, so not only the ones that were writing during the last pass .... which can be entirely different ones from during your last pass.

I think you need to look at capture in a similiar way as preview. it captures a anything that is write ready and you can punch that 'buffer' anywhere in time

let me try with another example :

- 1 track in latch mode (latch prime in stop pref should be enabled for this one)
- no automation yet written
- position the cursor somewhere in time and move the fader down.
- now press capture and remember the fader position

- start playback

the track will start writing the volum automation ... let it run for like 10 seconds or so and press stop

Now .... the volume curve should show the 'dip' you just wrote right ?

Now position yourself further down in the session or way before you just wrote the automation

press join and start playback : the track start writing the underlying volume automation

undo that and now press puch capture : see what I mean .... instead of writing the underlying automation it will puch in the level the track was at when you captured it earlier instead of just go into write at the current level.
If you do this during playback it will puch the stored level instead of just resume writing at the current level.

Now ... next try the same thing with say 8 tracks and capture all 8 track levels during the writing process or by touching all the faders (remember to have latch prime on.)

After you captured all 8 tracks start writing automation but only on 1 track.
Now when you rollback and press join ... it will only start writing wutomation on the track you were writing on during the last pass. Punch capture will start writing the 'scene' you stored in the buffer on all 8 tracks.

So you should see now that they are very different.

I apologize for the previous examples I gave in the other post. I admit they were not very well chosen and in fact I have to add to that that I mixed up the join and automatch and preview and capture features a bit in that one. (hey ,,, I wrote it from home and was not sitting behind the desk at the time ... sorry for that ... too many damn buttons to remember by heart ... lol)


Does this make things a bit clearer ? It's actually easier to show it then to write it up ... makes a simple thing sound so complicated really ...

I'm sure you can see the difference between the 2 and come up with plenty of examples of your own.

[colinweeks]

I think you can still use join the way you used to use it. I dont' think it changed or am I missing something ? Hitting join will instantly start writing whatever parameters were writing during the last pass and resume writing from the exact position and value you hit join. It has allways acted that way.

well, in 7.2 join included the parameter values ( i.e. +5dB at 300hz... whatever...) digi changed the way it worked in 7.3... in 7.2 join was really great when you're tweaking an eq or something and finally get it at the end of the line of dialog you can then just jump back and hit join and voila...

i'm with you 100% on the join vs punch capture difference and benefits...

however, the remaining question is: why would you NOT want the parameter values to go with the join command?

[Chris Lambrechts]

however, the remaining question is: why would you NOT want the parameter values to go with the join command?

Well for me personally that can be answered fairly easy. Because basically I do NOT want PT to erase downstream automation that's allready there.

When I'm mixing with D control I tend to leave things 'armed' for automation.

I just finished writing some automation on some guitar tracks for example and now am focussing on the lead vocal. When I write an automation pass on the lead vocal ... then roll back and use join I only want the vocal to join ... not the guitar tracks or whatever else in the session is still armed.

[colinweeks]

Well for me personally that can be answered fairly easy. Because basically I do NOT want PT to erase downstream automation that's allready there.

When I'm mixing with D control I tend to leave things 'armed' for automation.

I just finished writing some automation on some guitar tracks for example and now am focussing on the lead vocal. When I write an automation pass on the lead vocal ... then roll back and use join I only want the vocal to join ... not the guitar tracks or whatever else in the session is still armed.

thats the thing: join only affects those automation objects that were writing during the last pass... when you say armed i'm assuming you mean its in latch or touch which as long as its not writing when you hit stop, won't be put in the buffer.... so, join would only affect the vocal in your above example... also, join would blow over any downstream automation because it puts the last writing objects back into write. you hit join and your fader goes into write, but it DOESN'T go to the last value, which for me (working in post) would be the ideal. anyhow, i think i can see how i'd prefer it not to jump when working on music (in fact, join on the 9K only put the faders in write, but didn't change their value...)

[colinweeks]

anybody else affected by how the join command changed from 7.2 to 7.3? anyone have a preference?