Black Lion Audio Mod Comparison Experiment

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by Jamtime

Interesting how this thread just died after the facts were posted. I think that is kinda funny, just when it got interesting and close to scientific!

I had a feeling that was going to happen. Most people want to believe they can purchase greatness instead of having to achieve it. Most people look outward instead of inward to solve problems. And for most people its easier to think (and understand) that a mic preamp or mic or converter could solve their problem instead of changing the acoustics (which most people haven't learned anything about)...

This is why I have been saying for the last few years that the professional studio is going to make a comeback at some point. Eventually, everyone will realize that no matter what gear you have, you need a great acoustic space to make a great sounding album. And so the studios like Capitol, Sunset Sound, EastWest, Glenwood, The Village, Avatar, etc will start to get booked like crazy again for tracking sessions. People will still edit and possibly try to mix at home... but the space the instrument is in is AS MUCH a part of the instrument as the instrument itself. There's no way around that. And there's no way anyone can make a 10' x 10' x 8' room and make it sound like a 40' x 27' by 18' room. Even with altiverb and such... it still isn't the same. And that's the difference between a "pro" album and a demo. All these people are spending 10's of thousands of dollars on gear and hundreds of hours to try and learn how to use everything... and they end up doing everything in their untreated home or apartment. Once people start to realize, "hey, I can spend $1200 on a 003 and then put all the other 10's of thousands of dollars I'm going to spend on gear towards studio time at a place like The Mouse House or The Firehouse or Entourage or Sage and Sound or Threshold Sound" you are going to notice albums start sounding better and better.

[notrude55]

Acoustics stopped meaning anything a few years ago, does the term "quality sound" even mean anything anymore? Remember "High Fidelity"? Now just slap autotune on the mix bus and distribute MP3s, who needs studios or Engineers? At one point or another people might have ears again, might even want to hear a singer's voice, but the last generations of record buyers are "trained" to hear distortion and LOW Fidelity, they really don't care much for quality sound. A quality mix is one with tons of FX and cool drops not one that actually "sounds" good, let alone great.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by notrude55

Acoustics stopped meaning anything a few years ago, does the term "quality sound" even mean anything anymore? Remember "High Fidelity"? Now just slap autotune on the mix bus and distribute MP3s, who needs studios or Engineers? At one point or another people might have ears again, might even want to hear a singer's voice, but the last generations of record buyers are "trained" to hear distortion and LOW Fidelity, they really don't care much for quality sound. A quality mix is one with tons of FX and cool drops not one that actually "sounds" good, let alone great.

I see your point but I disagree. The declining record industry is, in my opinion a sign that the consumer can hear the difference. And would rather download crap for free than pay for crap. Make good music that also sounds good and it will sell a lot. Listen to the radio, is it any wonder most of the stations play music from the 70's through the 90's and there is really only 2 stations on the dial that play the crap that has been put out in the last few years.

I've had this discussion with several people in the "music for TV/Film" world too. And I was flat out told that clients can't hear the difference. But in reality they can... and it's why the company I work for does so well. We charge 4 times as much for 1/4 the amount of music and we constantly get clients coming back to us saying that our music is worth the extra money... Why? Because we record it the way it should be done. In a real studio with great A list musicians, amazing instruments and great writers.

Once the current crop of lemming/number pushing conglomerate record labels fold, the next generation labels will make their mark following the great sound+great music=$$$ There are too many people nowadays within the music industry that don't care about music. They care about money. And that has a trickle down effect all the way to the end product. I've literally heard really big name execs say "who cares, it's just music!!" Can you believe that!?!? And that is the problem... Too many people with MBA's on the board of directors for these companies worry too much about money and dividends than they do about the product they sell.

Anyway... with home theater systems getting better and better... Cars getting better and better sound systems with 5.1 14-speaker setups, HD radio, and Bluray players having the ability to stream 8 channels of uncompressed PCM audio data... you are going to see a switch. My wife, who is not an audiofile at all, absolutely hated XM radio in our infiniti M35 (with the 14 speaker system). Her whole reason, the music sounded "like crap" compared to the CDs and DVDs we would listen to in the car. So even the average consumer can hear the difference. And it's a difference they will pay for when they feel it is worth it.

[basslik]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

I see your point but I disagree. The declining record industry is, in my opinion a sign that the consumer can hear the difference. And would rather download crap for free than pay for crap. Make good music that also sounds good and it will sell a lot. Listen to the radio, is it any wonder most of the stations play music from the 70's through the 90's and there is really only 2 stations on the dial that play the crap that has been put out in the last few years.

I've had this discussion with several people in the "music for TV/Film" world too. And I was flat out told that clients can't hear the difference. But in reality they can... and it's why the company I work for does so well. We charge 4 times as much for 1/4 the amount of music and we constantly get clients coming back to us saying that our music is worth the extra money... Why? Because we record it the way it should be done. In a real studio with great A list musicians, amazing instruments and great writers.

Once the current crop of lemming/number pushing conglomerate record labels fold, the next generation labels will make their mark following the great sound+great music=$$$ There are too many people nowadays within the music industry that don't care about music. They care about money. And that has a trickle down effect all the way to the end product. I've literally heard really big name execs say "who cares, it's just music!!" Can you believe that!?!? And that is the problem... Too many people with MBA's on the board of directors for these companies worry too much about money and dividends than they do about the product they sell.

Anyway... with home theater systems getting better and better... Cars getting better and better sound systems with 5.1 14-speaker setups, HD radio, and Bluray players having the ability to stream 8 channels of uncompressed PCM audio data... you are going to see a switch. My wife, who is not an audiofile at all, absolutely hated XM radio in our infiniti M35 (with the 14 speaker system). Her whole reason, the music sounded "like crap" compared to the CDs and DVDs we would listen to in the car. So even the average consumer can hear the difference. And it's a difference they will pay for when they feel it is worth it.

I once read an article with an interview with George Martin ( 5th beatle ), stating something to the effect on it doesn't matter if it's a 2 million studio or a bedroom, with cheap mics, if you can mix it and the musicians are great and gets people on the dance floor that's all it takes, and now we live in a mp3 world?

[Dism]

The problem is that there are so few "real" musicians anymore. With so many fully digital songs, including vocals, recording style has completely changed. So the idea of having an impeccable guitarist, and a singer who can actually sing in tune has all but gone out the window. Hell, drums have become nearly entirely digital, even in rock songs.

So my point is, the "crap" is so easy to make and put out that quantity has taken precedence over quality. There's a new super smash hit every week, but it will be forgotten by the next. The industry will level when the quality of the music becomes a priority again.

[DrFord]

Tonight I went to teh House of Blues at Downtown Disney in Anahiem, CA. I got to see Howie Day open up for Colbie Callait. What a fantastic show. Talk about talent. Howie Day comes out with just an acoustic guitar and then start wailing and signing 3 hits I knew and didn't know I knew (check him out if you haven't yet.) Then he stands alone on stage and starts playing his Ac. Git. into some looping peddle device (I couldn't see what it was) and starts laying down live overdubs which are looping. Next he starts beating on his guitar through an octave peddle and then lays down a bassline... I was absolutely blown away. Not even to touch on the choreography and rehearsing that must have taken but even to have that idea and execute it so well...

Then Colbie came out to a sold out crowd, and she blew me away as well. She stands probably 5'10" tall, is pretty but not glamorous, cute but not gorgeous and has a nice body, but not a model's figure. In fact she looks like a girl you'd meet at a coffee shop, and actually would say yes if you asked her out. Then she sings just as well on stage as she does in the booth if not better. Captivating!!!

I am going to buy both of their albums ASAP. Not just download them and say I bought them but actually go out and get the CD. I might even buy Howie's DVD so I can see what the heck gear he was using to do the crazy live looping foot switch thing.

Live music makes you appreciate great artists and buy their product. When was the last time you went to a nightclub and said... oh my god I HAVE to buy that record. Never. Quality recordings capture quality talent. Those artists have money behind them to hire out good studios. That's why country music and christian are on the rise and everything else is struggling. They don't put up with mediocre musicians or sequenced parts. They want live drums, live organ through real stereo mic'd leslies and hot hot pickers.

Let this entire thread and experiment be a lesson to all producer, engineers, and hobbyists.... get talented players to record and your mixes will sound better instantly! Switch your D/A on average joes and you still have average joes with just a touch better clarity in the high end. I am not being a session player snob, I just wish I was a better player!

[ddwhitney]

Originally Posted by DrFord

get talented players to record and your mixes will sound better instantly!

I remember back about 8 or 9 years ago reading a thread on the old Mastering Webboard where Bob Ohlsson, Glenn Meadows, Bob Katz and I think Dave Collins were talking about this.

Great session guys in a great space with quality instruments.

Back then recording was capturing the talent... but things have changed.

Generally....we take average talent and manipulate it into something it's not...

After starting as an intern in a fairly large place and then having to survive in my garage for a time before hanging it up I can say that quality does matter in both the client and the gear you use to capture them.

But to what degree?

I haven't had the time to partake in this experiment but I've done similar experiments. There are too many variables (IMO) that are typically not addressed. The main issue that almost never gets addressed, is a persons individual frequency response curves. Just because Fletcher-Munson indicates an equal loudness curve for humans, in reality those curves are different for each person. Take hearing tests and have your response curves plotted. Then lets add the variation of listening environment, speaker type and response curves...

And because of these seemingly infinitesimal variations accumulate, the same device can sound dramatically different depending on who hears it, where they hear it on and on what they hear it. In addition whose to says whether "sounds more open" is a good thing...

I guess my point is that small variations in your recording chain are probably the least important part of the "HIT" equation.

Without great musicians executing a great song in a great space I can't see spending money on the smallest part of the formula. Of coarse I base this on years of suffering from "buyers remorse placebo effect". But that is just me.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by Dism

The problem is that there are so few "real" musicians anymore.

This is starting to change... and who do we have to thank for it... a little tiny company from Boston, MA called "Harmonix". You may have heard of the game they created, called "Guitar Hero" and now "Rock Band".

The Guitar Hero franchise made $959mil in the first TWO YEARS!!! Any artist that gets a song in the game can expect at least a 10% increase in back catalog sales, but the norm is about a 25% increase. Music retailers have shown a 30% rise in guitar sales every year since the game came out. And people are starting to take private lessons again!! a Few my friends that are educators have notice a sharp increase in guitar students particularly over the last few years.

And what's funny is, when they started the game, they couldn't even get music for it. I know one of the artists for the game (I'm originally from Boston) and I almost got a song in the game myself! And most of the songs in the original game are rerecords because the labels wouldn't release the original recordings... Another friend of mine from Boston did the Guitar Hero II 80's edition expansion. And to show the change in the industry to the game in just a year and a half... while he was listening to and transcribing all the songs... he kept noticing, "Wow, this sounds EXACTLY like the original. I wonder who they got to re-record these!?!?" And come to find out, it was the original, the labels started GIVING harmonix the 2" multitracks so they could make the game because they saw such a huge increase in sales from the songs that were in the first game...

And so what does that mean for a lot of us... it means that Hiphop's reign on the charts is waning, and the kids that are now growing up with Rock Band and Guitar Hero are starting to respect the art of playing an instrument more (I've seen this first hand), and are gravitating towards listening to that type of.

My "educated" guess is that in probably about another 5 years or so...when all these young kids have become good musicians, we are going to see a lot of great live rock bands taking over the music scene...

And since Guitar Hero and Rock Band are played at home on TVs... any kid with a home theater system will usually hear how killer it sounds through the theater system, and not get the same "rush" when listening on ipod earbuds... and that is the moment that fidelity becomes a priority to an individual listener. But even moreso, fidelity will become more important to the artist since they've been practicing their instrument for so long. I've always noticed the artists that are really notice the fidelity of the recordings are usually the ones that have practiced a lot. They know the sound of their instrument (and most others) inside and out and can hear when something doesn't sound right...

Music is going through a weird time right now... very much like it did in the early 80's. And next up is going to a rock phase like the mid 80's to mid 90's... and I'm looking forward to it.

[getz76]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

I've always noticed the artists that are really notice the fidelity of the recordings are usually the ones that have practiced a lot. They know the sound of their instrument (and most others) inside and out and can hear when something doesn't sound right...

I agreed with everything except the above; usually, it is a guitarist that notices "fidelity" is one with bad technique or time that picks on tone or blames the bass player or drummer. Just my experiences (on both sides of the glass).

[jmitchell1532]

I remeber when Guitar Hero first came out. I was at the Best Buy at the Cambridgeside Galleria, and was SO mad that this 10 year old girl was playing "Cowboys From Hell" and I picked it up, and failed in 30 seconds. I was mad at myself thinking "I can play the REAL song.....!" Times change, though. I actually own all of them now. Fun times with friends.

Hopefully, the industry picks up. I think, with the rise of indie/DIY bands, like Death Cab for Cutie, who do their own recording (Chris Walla still goes Analog), having hits on the radio, maybe the "audiophile" will return.

My 2 cents