Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-28-2004, 11:35 AM
kingz kingz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7
Default pro tools summing or digital board summing

Anyone have any opinion on summing in a digital mixer, as opposed to analog or "bounce to disk". I know analog summing is the best, but will summing in an 01V96 be comparable, concidering how awful "bounce to disk" sounds?

kingz9
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-28-2004, 11:58 AM
Howardk Howardk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Canada, just past the line!
Posts: 1,990
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

I must have no ears because I don't hear awful on my HD system and don't agree with your assumptions. However there are many that agree with you, see other posts on this topic, so I am not going to try and argue which sounds better. However I believe that even if mixing externally sounds better (whatever 'better' happens to mean?), for repeatability and convenience I would say mixing within ProTools completely(mixing-in-the-box), without an external board (analog or digital), and minimal external processing (none in my case), provides a more repeatable process. This allows for quicker revisits, more experimentation, etc. . . This resulting flexibility yields better overall results in my opinion. For example, I never have to say, "Sorry I can't bring up the BGs by 1 db because I can't get the SSL mix room back until next week" or "Sure I can do it, but it is going to cost $200 to recall everything and get the mix right again". Now my response is, "Sure I can try that and have ready in 15 minutes!"
__________________
...for system configuration info see my profile
(Click on member name)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-28-2004, 01:26 PM
kingz kingz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

you seem to have missed the point. this wasn't about total recall, and ease of use. I dont mind taking the extra step for the sound I want to achieve. Sure I can use nothing but ampfarm, but I'll spend the time micing up my mesa to get a desired tone from my guitar.

I'm really trying to get opinions on digital summing. There is no doubt there is a difference between analog and digital, and probably (hopefully) a difference between summing in the box, and through a digital board.

If anyone has heard the differences, please let me know
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-28-2004, 01:43 PM
1150Post 1150Post is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 431
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

I prefer in the box as well on my HD rig. I'd try both and see which one you prefer. Otherwise, I'm afraid you are just going to get a different opinion from each person who posts. It's a hot topic.

Or...

Do a search on "Mixing in the Box" and find a very long thread on just this topic.

FWIW.

Brad McIlvaine
Sr. Mixer/Designer
Henninger Media Services
Washington, DC 20036
__________________
Brad McIlvaine
Sr. Mixer/Designer
Henninger Media Services
Washington, DC 20036
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-28-2004, 03:49 PM
Howardk Howardk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Canada, just past the line!
Posts: 1,990
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

Kingz - I didn't miss your point, just sharing mine (which is keep it simple by MITB). My guess is using an 01V96 would not yield advantages. . . I have not tried it though. . . maybe someone else has. . . good luck. Not sure how Ampfarm versus mic'ing your Mesa has to do with your mixing/summing choices.

How did you conclude HD sounds "Awful" when using "Bounce to Disk"?

What type of ProTools rig do you have?
__________________
...for system configuration info see my profile
(Click on member name)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-28-2004, 04:37 PM
picksail picksail is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 422
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

I would be interested in hearing about your conclusion, as well. BTD may not be the absolute cream-of-the-crop, but I think awful is a bit dramatic. Of course, this is purely subjective. I don't think that summing to an 02R96 will yield superior advantages over BTD. Try and see.

In answer to your question: No. There is nothing aesthetically comparable regarding analog vs. digital summing. Ecspecially, with an 02R96.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-28-2004, 05:25 PM
Chris Cavell Chris Cavell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Louisiana, USA
Posts: 4,831
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

digital summing in-the-box vs. digital summing out of the box really depends on the summing algorithms which should be so darn close as to yield absolutely no difference on the final 16 bit master (i.e. it doesn't matter if the algorithm is written on a chip or written in a software app...the algorithms should be nearly mathematically identical) You may find some differences in a digital mixer that could give you a better feel over your mix, like a different pan law on the panners. The only thing that would probably have a noticed affect on the sound-quality is the converters used if you're going to an analog recorder for final mixdown. (the same could be said about ITB mixing if you've got any external voices from midi coming in through auxes during btd...i think you can still consider that ITB mixing )
__________________
Cavell Studios
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-28-2004, 06:54 PM
Matt_G Matt_G is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Posts: 590
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

The goal with any digital device should be 'accuracy' If the Yamaha digital mixer is designed properly it should'nt offer any sonic benefits over a BTD in Protools. If your description of 'BTD' is 'Awful' then maybe your mix is the problem? Because Protools just bounces exactly what you are hearing when you play the mix back, unless you are applying a SRC or truncation to 16bit without dither, it shouldn't sound different. You should read the Tech Talk article 'Mixing in the box' to understand the differences in the way protools handles this & why people prefer to mix through a good quality analog board.

Basically it's the charachter & inaccuracies of summing through an analog board that people prefer the sound of, not the fact that Protools BTD is flawed. I prefer to mix in the box for convenience adding the charachter I like using tape or valve outboard gear for that analog flavour & sense of depth. But if I had a spare SSL in the closet I would be very happy to sum through that.
__________________
Mastering Engineer

www.matthewgraymastering.com

Brisbane Australia
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-28-2004, 11:52 PM
Alécio Costa's Avatar
Alécio Costa Alécio Costa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Florianópolis, Magic Island - Brazil
Posts: 2,875
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

I´ve been mastering for a few local studios that do all inside the box with a mix/mix plus system. I have compared to my own mixes, done with my PT Mix plus bi-lightpiped to an 02R V2 and seems stereo image is slighlty better. Sound seems also deeper.
Ok, it might depend on everyone´s individual talent/experience with ITB techniques but a few other people still insist on doing their stuff with d8b´s, 02Rs.
However, I have been taking some stuff done in PT HD3 and I felt the stereo image is better, no need to eq as much as with a legacy mix system, highs seem more "natural".So, now maybe no need for an external digital board?
I have even considered upgrading my 02R to an 02R V2 96k, may is arriving and software version 2 has just been released by Yamaha.
I would be curious to know if the Dm2000 or the 02R 96k would be a giant leap if connected to a mix plus or an HD Accel set-up in terms of stereo image, depth.
__________________
Alécio Costa Studio
High-End e-Mastering & Music Production
www.aleciocosta.com

http://www.facebook.com/alecio.costa

PT Ultimate Native 2023.3 - Mac Mini M1 16GB RAM - Mac Os Ventura 13.2 - 2 192 IO Digidesign Digital


PT HD2 Accel - 10.3.10 OS 10.6.8 - Mac Pro 2008 16GB RAM

Mastering Gear: Pendulum Audio, Crane Song, Avalon, Great River, Sebatron, Sonnox, Izotope, PSP, TC, Fab Filter.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-29-2004, 12:46 AM
Matt_G Matt_G is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Posts: 590
Default Re: pro tools summing or digital board summing

Quote:
I would be curious to know if the Dm2000 or the 02R 96k would be a giant leap if connected to a mix plus or an HD Accel set-up in terms of stereo image, depth.

I seriously doubt it.. save the money & upgrading to HD would be money better spent. Or upgrade your converters these will have a more noticeable effect on stereo image & depth then summing through a digital desk. My guess why you may have been hearing a better sound stage through the O2R is the clocking or jitter in the O2R is better (not brilliant) then the clocking/jitter from the 888 D/A.
__________________
Mastering Engineer

www.matthewgraymastering.com

Brisbane Australia
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Track Routing - avoidance of digital summing munit54 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 9 10-14-2008 04:15 AM
Summing mixer for Pro Tools gregfrey Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 2 05-07-2007 09:14 AM
Digital Summing Comparison bluemt Tips & Tricks 0 12-18-2002 10:00 AM
D8B Summing vs. Pro Tools Summing Sound Guy Andy Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 10 03-08-2002 04:04 AM
summing digital audio aboyd 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 1 10-21-2001 09:47 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:34 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com