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  #21  
Old 06-11-2005, 07:13 PM
blue demon blue demon is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

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Okay, this is the thing. It's the cook not the kitchen. Surround in LE, I think, would only boost the sales of Pro Tools TDM. Younger mixers would own LE and learn how to use the tool. Then when he gets a gig and needs the fire power, buys a TDM rig. You just can't mix a show with a native PT rig yet. If a business is considering the price of TDM VS LE, then they aren't pro and don't have competetive mix engineers.
Peace,
Brandon

I agree with this 100%, and this is where my post should have ended up.


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  #22  
Old 06-11-2005, 11:03 PM
Noiz2 Noiz2 is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

A little perspective on the perspective. I love the Ranch, But you are actually supporting the Dr.'s point. GL has drastically cut down on post sound crew on the Starwars films. He is not a small guy who can't afford to make his films but he chose to save money, it cost a lot of folks work. On the low end it is a problem because a lot of producer/ directors can't tell the diference and folks who really should not be posting films (at least not at this stage of experience) are tossed into the fire and less that great work comes out. It hurts all of the industry since instead of learning from pros and moving up the green editor is slammed with too much that he/she can't handle. And at the same time the hunk of budget that gets set aside to do sound get shrunk. It's a vicious circle. If instead the director/producer HAD to budget more money for post they will look for there moneys worth and factor quality in AND the green editor can get some practical experience so when they get a shot at doing more they are better equipped and are held to a higher standard. AND the director/producer gets used to better sound and is less willing to go cheap to save money. I was in a producing class recently (trying to broaden my income poss.) where the teacher (one who pretty regularly works as producer on 2-10 mill pictures) told the class that they should NEVER have to pay for music since there was plenty of talent in the Bay Area that was willing to work for credit. I don't do music so it doesn't directly effect me but I was appalled. Here is some one teaching future producers to not pay an artist!
I don't have a HD3 system. I have a Mix (not+) and an Le system on a AMIII. Most of my work recently has been on ads and smaller films and the biggest hurdle in the small budget film world is getting anything like a living wage. I have heard over and over the well just get some student ... The directors I have sold on quality have been mostly (~90%) amazed and very happy. Not because I'm brilliant (though if anyone wants to call me that I'll thank them) but because there prior experiences have been SO BAD. It's not easy to do good post work, and low prices imply that it is. Apple (and I really like them also but...) has done a HUGE disservice to picture editors, sound editors, and composers. Not because they are making cheap and powerful tools but because the advertising is all focused on how anybody can make a "professional" film with little or no experience.

It is correct that it is the cook not the kitchen BUT Macdonald's is making a ton of $$$ and killing people at the same time (and yes I do eat there from time to time). But it has lowered the quality of food and gotten customers in through price. And at the same time squashed the local diners.

So despite the fact that I want cheap tools I think that too much for too little has really hurt the industry, film, music, video etc.

Ad's are another category that has just gone down the tubes, all these picture editors are being pushed into cutting the sound also. Some think they are great sound "designers" but most would rather not deal with it. As a result we get loads of caned music and REALY bad FX as the norm.

Personally I don't do surround on my Mix system. Technically I could but My room is not set up for it and though I could lie and say "it will be just like a real stage" it's simply not true. To mix in surround for the large screen takes a room with some space in it (the "sound pod" rooms at SWR are not that big). I think it's a mistake to imply that five speakers and an 001 in a closet are all that it takes to do surround. And that would be in essence what Digi would be saying.
In the end they will probably bow to the pressure but in the end those who most want them to bow will be most hurt by it when they finally get the experience and find they can't make a living.
And to just restate I am not a big guy in a big room trying to protect my investment. I'm a little guy in a little room who wants a healthy industry because I want to make a living in it.



Quote:
Hello. I feel I have to chime in here, not to disagree, but more to put things in perspective and balance things a little I believe.
Skywalker Ranch has a lot of LE systems they use to edit. If I understand the workflow they used for EP III, they did a lot of pre mixing as they cut. If the Mix magazine article on EP III is accurate they are somewhat committed to mixing as they edit. 5.1 capabilities would be ideal for them and I am sure they would gladly welcome a 5.1 capable LE system. In instances like these, these large editorial houses have a professional need for a tool to meet that job requirement. I am sure the Doctor and Richard themselves could find a professional use for a 5.1 LE system within their current setup. At the very least, they can recognize where such a set up could be used by professionals in a professional setting.

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  #23  
Old 06-11-2005, 11:15 PM
sidereal-studios sidereal-studios is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

I don't know why some are suggesting this is a dead post. To me it seems like a good, civil, relevant discussion.

I really don't believe that there needs to be fear or panic about the *craft* of post sound. It may be more that some of the larger facilities will have to make corrections for changing times. Maybe this will come in a downscaling of the Pro Tools equipment. For example: When I saw the announcement for Icon, I couldn't believe it. I mean no disrespect to Digi's engineers, who do great work, but there's no way in hell I'd recommend that a facility budget for this. It just doesn't seem to be the trajectory the business is going. The industry moves so fast, why would anyone spend so much money to tie themselves to a single platform like that? There's no adaptability there. If I'm going to spend the money, give me an actual console.

As I was trying to suggest earlier, and others have said more clearly, the Pro Tools hardware is not *the industry*, it's a tool and a method. The *facility* is the reputation, the people, and the place. Acoustics are far more important than the mixing system. I'd even go so far as to suggest that a film could be mixed on an 002 on a dub stage in the hands of talented people and in a good room. It would be a huge challenge, but I believe the result would be far better than the same film done on an HD3 by some hack in his basement.
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  #24  
Old 06-11-2005, 11:22 PM
philper philper is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

My guess is that Digi will add surround to LE pretty soon, probably when the next piece of LE hardware comes out (003?), and probably at the same time that Apple makes the next big push in the capabilities of SoundTrackPro.

I agree with the comments about NLE and DAW makers doing a disservice to the industry by telling people what they want to hear: buy this and you don't anyone/thing else. But I'm also hearing a lot of talk from
top level users like Walter Murch and Ben Burtt about wanting to be able to do all the post of a feature in a single box/system. I understand the impulse, but feel that these statements are disingenuous. They leave out the whole issue of TIME in post--like how fast it is usually expected to be done these days @ all levels.
A lot of what I do in audio post COULD be done by a decent picture editor with a good ear, but they don't have time to do it and do all the other things they have to do as well. Mr. Lucas has the luxury of controlling the whole universe his film lives in--most filmmakers have no such luxury and are deperately trying to make deadlines as their budgets run out. So while Messers. Murch and Burtt work in their "one box" they will still need a crew of people working with/behind/in preparation for them to do the amount of high-quality work
needed to make a film sound track today.

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  #25  
Old 06-12-2005, 06:21 AM
Richard Fairbanks Richard Fairbanks is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

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There are some producers who are blind to that (thankfully I rarely have to deal with them) but most of them are less budget sensitve than you would think- All they are concerned with is making their release date, and turning the chequebook off.

You are fortunate that you rarely have to deal with them. Can I have some of your clients?
Quote:
"There is never enough money to do it right, but there is always enough to do again"
I'm going to try this one out Monday! Thanks! Actually, you make a good point. Salesmanship can make a real difference.

You spell checkbook funny.
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  #26  
Old 06-12-2005, 11:20 AM
cmaynes cmaynes is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

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Quote:
There are some producers who are blind to that (thankfully I rarely have to deal with them) but most of them are less budget sensitve than you would think- All they are concerned with is making their release date, and turning the chequebook off.

You are fortunate that you rarely have to deal with them. Can I have some of your clients?

I don't think you would want them frankly- Unless you have a REALLY strong constitution! On the show I am on right now, I am working typically 70 to 80 hours a week (it is a union job).

Quote:
"There is never enough money to do it right, but there is always enough to do again"
I'm going to try this one out Monday! Thanks! Actually, you make a good point. Salesmanship can make a real difference.

Salesmanship is the key- I have worked with some supervisors who can't get money for Sharpies and some who can get upwards of 75K for field recording. I need to figure out their mojo...

You spell checkbook funny.
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  #27  
Old 06-12-2005, 11:41 AM
blue demon blue demon is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

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I don't think you would want them frankly- Unless you have a REALLY strong constitution! On the show I am on right now, I am working typically 70 to 80 hours a week (it is a union job).




Must be good money. Guys like me WISH we were getting that kind of work. In a typical work week, I work MORE than that with my day job and freelance work, for way less money than you are making. You should feel lucky.



Sure, there are guys out there who would put a surround setup in their closet, and advertise that they are a real surround studio. I am not one of those guys. Those guys that do that will work with someone, and burn that bridge, and never work for that person again, eventually putting that person out of business.

Again....and I think some of you may be missing my point....the people I want to mix in surround for CANNOT afford a real stage. So it's me or nothing. 99% of the time, the project won't even make it to a theater. Probably straight to dvd for friends, family, and their reel. Sure, I'd love to have an HD3 rig in a nice facility, but guess what, I don't have the cash. I work a day job, AND freelance, and whereas my freelance work has been steadily getting higher quality, and better paying over the past year and a half that I've been doing it, I still can't live off of it. My goal is to have a real place, just like everyone else, and I think having surround in LE will help me with that. I think it can only HELP the industry by getting people more experience.

Someone said that big budget projects are great for new guys to get experience. Think again. That rarely happens. On something as important as Star Wars, how many guys with less than a years experience do you actually think cut sound on that picture? When I interned, us lowly people with very little experience only ever got to cut student projects. Only once, did I get to put my hands on a real feature going on at the time, and that was just because someone was out sick, and I happened to be walking by.

I've been thinking about it, and the comparison with the post work to the music world is partly true. Things are changing to the smaller project studios, but the real difference is, people are willing to listen to crappy sounding music, but people are not willing to listen to crappy sounding movies.

-BD
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  #28  
Old 06-12-2005, 12:27 PM
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dr sound dr sound is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?


BD (Dave),
That's just it.It's the interaction amoung working with others is what gets you experience. Having an LE at home doesn't let you bounce ideas and learn new tricks and listen to others work OR have them listen to yours! That's why one needs to work not solo but within a group. That's the way you learn, and then that's the way connections are made. Don't get me wrong, I am always learning but OJT experience is the very best. This is what most people trying to break into the Industry don't understand. Just because you can now afford an LE, your lack of experience is your bigest hurdle. One has to pay their dues. We all did.
When you work in an enviroment where you can observe talented people doing their jobs you then create your own style of doing things. You pick up the best from others and then mold that experience into your own style. I have been blessed to work with many World Class Mixers, Sound Editors, Sound Supervisors and Picture Editors. If you become a one man show without having those experinces then you will be greatly limited. This is experince talking. i hope that some of you will follow this advice. And guess what, it was free!
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  #29  
Old 06-12-2005, 02:25 PM
blue demon blue demon is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

Marti,

I totally agree with you. This is why I encourage people to do what I did. Spend at least 6 months interning at a top notch facility. No pay, which sucks, but man I learned a TON there. Pretty much consider it school, really. Yeah, I graduated with a BS in sound engineering, but they don't teach you (at least where I went) how it really works in the post world. There is tons of stuff to know, not just pro tools, like workflow, file compatability issues, frame rates...all that stuff. But here's the kicker, even after my internship at a world class facility, I still couldn't get hired anywhere. You remember, right? You showed me Monkeyland, and your mix stage. Very nice stuff, but no jobs there. I've been all over L.A. looking for work at a facility, but nobody seemed to be hiring, at least at a rate that I thought was fair, so I said f*** it, I'll freelance, and I've been busy ever since. Sure, I'd love to be at a facility that is always busy with a great team of people, that's what we all want, but that hasn't happened, so I'm starting things myself. I've been busy enough with Coffey Sound and my freelance work that I don't have time to keep searching places now.

I guess the point is, the current situation isn't conducive for hiring lots of younger guys like me because for every one slot available, there are a thousand people that want it. You are definitely right about making connections with people, which is something I do not have by freelancing, but thankfully I have not burned any bridges with my clients thus far, and for me, I get to really network on the production side of things through work. I get to talk to people that are just starting up production, and ask them if they have their sound designer picked out yet. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If no, I offer my services, or, if it's too big of a job for me, I have no shame in saying so, and will recommend someone else more capable than I am to handle a job. I definitely do not want to bite off more than I can chew at this stage in my budding career.

To be honest with you, if LE gave me the ability to mix in surround, I would only do it if the budget did not allow for a real mix stage. I am fully aware of the limitations of me mixing in surround in my apartment. I really wouldn't want to do it, to be honest with you, but it would be nice to know I could if I had to. However, I guess it's good that I can't mix in surround in LE for now, becuase I'd have to convince my wife that I would need 3 more 824's and a sub, and there is no way she'd let me put that up in our place .

-Dave Fisk AKA Blue Demon
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  #30  
Old 06-12-2005, 04:19 PM
cmaynes cmaynes is offline
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Default Re: Still no surround in LE?

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Must be good money. Guys like me WISH we were getting that kind of work. In a typical work week, I work MORE than that with my day job and freelance work, for way less money than you are making. You should feel lucky.

BD-

I will let you tell my youngest daughter who's birthday I missed saturday due to work... There is a point where it is simply drudgery- It blows and until you are in that situation you will never know, so please do not compare my experience to your situation.

that being said- I am not lucky at all, It has taken 25 years to become a "success" and I strictly follow the rule of "You are only as good as your last reel".

After reading your response to Marti's post though I was wondering- After your internship did you try to get "any" position at that facility, or were you trying to get an editing job- In most cases, It is best to get into the local 700 (if working in post in LA), Otherwise if want to get hired onto Union shows you will have to be pretty special.

When I started in LA I lucked out due to my ProTools experience and the timing of the industry- I would think it more difficult today. But I know many USC grads who are doing the same as you and making it work as best they can- They do have no family life though...

I don't know If mentioned or not, but you should let any post sound guys you work with know what you are into doing as well-

charles maynes
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