Love em or Hate Waves finally puts DLS bundles on sale

[Barry Johns]

Originally Posted by simon.a.billington

At least with the Waves systems they integrate nicely with HDX as well, but can slow be used outside of the ProTools environment.

I'm not saying TDM is a bad thing, but it's dying a slow death. Unfortunately you can't stop progress. If you could we'd all be still living like that Armish!! I just wouldn't recomend TDM at this point to anyone because you would be investing in equipment that is soon to be obsolete, and you can't change that.

And if I were the owner of TDM equipment I would start putting my cash away to crossgrade to a modern contemporary. HDX, Waves, UAD. The Waves system seems more flexible at this point and that is where I would possibly consider investing... Or sticking to native.

With a decent system you can get very low latency. As a proficient musician I do notice latency higher than 7ms, it tends to throw off my performance. So for playing keys or bass 7 or below is my magic number.

I'm not a vocalist, however I have recorded some voice overs in the past and do notice anything above 3ms is a distraction. I'm not really concerned with comb-filtering because I know the audio won't be written down like that.

So I can see merit to some of these arguments, but as writers/arrangers almost everyone is working with latency to a certain degree. Whether it be myself or Danny Elfman or Hans Zimmerman, they too use virtual instruments with latencies similar to ones I have told you about. And they get the job done.

So as musician it is less noticable, you more think of it as contributing to the action of an instrument. As a vocalist, you do want lower latencies...

But is it possible to track natively. These days YES. It's 2014, not 2004.

Is it more beneficial to track with DSP, well excluding the cost factor, that would be YES again.

Depends on what your market is, obsolete is only measured by, if it can no longer do what you require it to do. Bases on that, and considering my workflow, for me, I doubt TDM will ever be obsolete.

[upscaps]

Originally Posted by Barry Johns

Depends on what your market is, obsolete is only measured by, if it can no longer do what you require it to do. Bases on that, and considering my workflow, for me, I doubt TDM will ever be obsolete.

Indeed. Obsolete? not when 90% of the post, recording facilities, and large game studios are not upgrading past 10HD on TDM rigs. No facility wants to lose backwards compatibility and plugins with decades of past sessions.

Originally Posted by simon.a.billington

So I can see merit to some of these arguments, but as writers/arrangers almost everyone is working with latency to a certain degree. Whether it be myself or Danny Elfman or Hans Zimmerman, they too use virtual instruments with latencies similar to ones I have told you about. And they get the job done.

Indeed recording VI's are no issue. However, when Hans, Elfman, etc. have the orchestras record their VI mock-ups they track to Pro Tools HD rigs. And they do that for a couple of reasons. Composing in Logic, Cubase, Performer and tracking in Pro Tools HD is par for the course.

with that said if I was starting out nowadays waves dls, uad2 octo, hd native would be more than enough.

[propower]

TDM is an enormously successful system for recording and mixing audio that has been in use for a long time. Scores of studios have owned (and many still own) complete systems with computers - interfaces - sync boxes - Plugins - Controllers - etc... The PCIe versions can run on pretty modern Macs and any modern PC - as well as support up to PT10. Any of these folk would have to have very compelling reasons to either do the costly upgrade to HDX - crossgrade to HDN - or buy into any other system. Calling this outdated or obsolete is like referring to a pencil as outdated or obsolete

Now -
1) it is an ever changing world though! And if you had NONE of this TDM stuff - well its gonna cost serious $$ to assemble all the cards - interfaces - PT licenses - Plugins - controllers etc.. for a compelling PCIe TDM system even today. $2K would be a very capable - but also a very basic system with $3K to $4K being more like it. So if one is buying something new what can $3K or $4K get you today? Lots of options - but not HDX!

2) One must also ask if there some compelling things drawing the user to PT11?? nMP?? etc?? If so then again - there are lots of modern choices

So where does the new Waves system fit in??

The System is VERY flexible and it is easy to confuse different use scenarios. To keep this focused and manageable I am restricting myself here to how this new system integrates for a ProTools Native user who wants low latency DSP assisted tracking ability (though there are other ways to use this and it is not limited to ProTools!). Note: it also can be added to either HDN, TDM or HDX but that's another couple of discussions!!

The new Waves system integrates with ProTools in a unique way giving DSP resources for any SoundGrid (SG) plugin. These resources can be used for simple CPU offload and for very low latency tracking through SG plugins - we are talking 1.3ms at 96kHz with AVID i/o independent of buffer setting - with a more HD like experience than an Apollo or MOTU workflow). This applies to any Pro Tools Native system that uses either a Digilink enabled i/o or a DigiGrid (DG) i/o (IOS, IOX IOC). Examples of DigiLink i/os are - AVID i/o - 192 - 96 - Aurora - Ensemble - Burl Converters patched into a 192 Digital i/o ... etc - anything that ever plugged into an HD or HDX system works with the Digigrid DLS/DLI.

Other relevant features include-
- Single Ethernet connection to computer
- Expandable/extensible with any DG interface (put i/o's in multiple rooms with ethernet connectivity)
- Allows resources to be shared among multiple computers (i/o's - SG Servers)
- Streams audio to/from any connected computer
- Open to 3rd parties (Brainworx already on board)

[Raoul23]

Originally Posted by Barry Johns

Depends on what your market is, obsolete is only measured by, if it can no longer do what you require it to do. Bases on that, and considering my workflow, for me, I doubt TDM will ever be obsolete.

Exactly this!! IMO TDM will be around for along time yet. For years I was craving a HD system and now I have one I love it. It's completely stable, it took me a little while to get my system like that (on a windows machine) but now it doesn't miss s heart beat super stable which is what I want in front of clients. Being on an Accel 7HD system I've never managed to use all its power up how ever many plugs I insert. TDM allows stability and very low latency when recording. When my clients are here they don't wanna see me messing about with buffers etc when tracking, just set and forget. I can live without offline bounce that's the only thing PT11 would really offer me.

[nerd513]

the problem with the waves system and the UA stuff is u are limited to the plug ins they offer with HD u can use any TDM plug of which u have a vast amount to choose from. i need to able to mix and match. being stuck with just UA plugs or just waves plugs wont cut it. HD is still king of the mountain until someone can knock it off its spot which i dont see happening anytime soon. when that day does finally come it will probably be HDX that does it but waves isnt the only one not developing aax dsp so its gonna be a rough road

[propower]

Originally Posted by nerd513

the problem with the waves system and the UA stuff is u are limited to the plug ins they offer with HD u can use any TDM plug of which u have a vast amount to choose from. i need to able to mix and match. being stuck with just UA plugs or just waves plugs wont cut it. HD is still king of the mountain until someone can knock it off its spot which i dont see happening anytime soon. when that day does finally come it will probably be HDX that does it but waves isnt the only one not developing aax dsp so its gonna be a rough road

Totally agree here - yet its not a "problem" as much as just how each system works. But the issue is very real for users of TDM that spent years collecting all of their plugins - not to mention these all have years and years of road tested solid performance! But no one is going to make a new TDM plug in. UA certainly makes some very excellent interfaces and has a stellar line up and reputation for their plugins. For a single company Waves has a fairly enormous collection and whether they are every ones favorites these are all very useable (and were core holdings of most TDM systems). Then there is the 3rd party aspect. If this takes off - that will be a big plus.

IMO - the Waves system is not a replacement for HDX or TDM. If HD/HDX is what you need - then its what you need! The Waves System is an alternative (or in some HD cases an add on) that adds functionality with its own unique set of attributes (DSP - Networking etc) especially to Native users in the mid-price region ($2K to $5K).

[Table Syrup Records]

I'm betting there will be a ton of third party on the Waves platform.
Great move on their part making it open to others.

It's gonna grow... even AAX DSP is slow to progress

I'm looking forward to the Waves DSP platform

[YYR123]

Originally Posted by Table Syrup Records

I'm betting there will be a ton of third party on the Waves platform.

Great move on their part making it open to others.

Yeah that is super cool they would be inclusive to other companies- this would definitely turn the tide and the opinion of this product for sure

[simon.a.billington]

I think I have to define what I mean by obsolete...

Avid is no longer making or supporting the TDM platform and we are starting to see TDM support dropped by the other major developers.

I didn't say it was bad or you can't do anything professional with it. Indeed it's the opposite. I'm not an idiot, I've seen the major impact has had in the studios across the years.

But in a few years there will be no support, no new hardware and no new plugins on the platform. That's not about to change either. It's not like Avid is going to suddenly turn around and say "you know what, let's scratch HDX and go back to TDM". It won't happen.

Yeah there maybe teething issues on the platform, but every product, every developer goes through that. Every time a major OS is released, or every time Adobe does a major release, Waves, SoftTube... whatever, there will always be issues at the start that will be need to be ironed out.

I'm not saying drop all your TDM, HDX a is the only way. But I am saying at some point VERY soon you will have to make that decision, stick with TDM and pretty much freeze everything in place where it is and pray you don't have any issues, or go HDX, DigiGrid, UAD or something and move with the technology into the future.

Both ways are valid, both come with their pros and cons and it's up to you which path to take. But that choice is still there and you will have to make it some time soon.