Is the Waves IDR dither better than the Masterlist CD dither?

[vtone]

Is the Waves IDR dither better than the Masterlist CD dither?

[guitates]

vtone--I have tested both IDR and the MLCD Dither is FAR superior. (for instance) I have PTLE 5.0.1, and instead of puting dither on the Master fader when bouncing or creating the file that MLCD will burn to CD, I record in 24bit and bounce and convert after bounce to 16bit without any dither. I then load the file into MLCD and use ONLY the dither--Not either noise shaping 1 or 2, and get the best quality. I have tried Waves IDR and Pro tools dither on the master fader with pro tools dither even sounding better than IDR, but the MLCD Dither adds much more warmth and fatness....JT

[ninemensmorris]

Uhhh - if, as you say, you've bounced to 16-bit in ProTools with no dither, you've lopped off the bottom 8 bits, and there's nothing left to dither. If your intent is to dither in MLCD, then you would bounce to disk at 24-bit, preserving the lower 8 bits. Maybe that's what you meant.

I am actually quite interested in this topic, though, from the perspective of relative dither quality of PT, MLCD, and TC Master/X. Has anyone done a side-by-side?

Bruce

[Bob Olhsson]

I haven't recently with the current version of MLCD but IDR and the digi dither both used to be better than MLCD 1.x. with 24 bit files.

[vtone]

What are our options?

Waves IDR
PT dither
MLCD dither
digi Maxim
Mastertools

I haven't compared and contrasted these yet. But I'd like to experiment the next time I get a rainy day with nothing to do.

[guitates]

Hello--ninemen...I appreciate your attempt to explain what happens when converting from 24 to 16 bits, but, even if you bounced a 24 bit file with NO ProTools "Lopping" or Converting After Bounce to 16bit and then burned a CD with MLCD and MLCD Dither, doesen't the final CD product end up becoming "lopped" off to 16 bits, or Converted to 16bits by MLCD??

Also, Bob Olhsson, I am so privileged to actually communicate with you and I Do apprieciate Very Much you taking time to share your great experiences. I am using MLCD 2.2.and the poor man's PTLE 5.0.1. I will look forward to carring my ProTools LE files to someone like you for final mastering with TDM someday.

I made 10 different bounces with my 24 bit recording. 1 thru 3 were NO PT convert after bounce to 16bit and No PT or Waves Dither on master track.
1-I used MLCD dither No Noise Shaping 2-MLCDith w/Noise Sh #1- 3 MLCDith w/NSh #2.
4 thru 6 I used ProTools Convert After Bounce to 16bit with No PT or Waves Dither and
4-MLCD Dither only- 5-MLCD Dither with NS #1 6--MLCD Dither w/NS #2.
7--Waves IDR on master track w/No Convert After Bounce, and 8--Waves IDR with PT ConvAftBoun to 16 bit. 9-PT Dither w/No CAB and 10-PT Dither-With C/A/Bounce.
I prayed that 1 of these experiments would Jump out at me as the Very Best Quality and Actually one did! It was #4 when I allowed PTLE to Convert to 16bit After Bounce and MLCD Dither with NO Noise Shaping. WHEW!! Well please Correct me if I am in accurate in any way with my Thinking. Thank God for the DUC and the possibility of exchanging experiences...JT

[editor]

Finally something that Bob O. and I can agree on. IDR will give far superior results vs MLCD dither. Just my experience...

[This message has been edited by editor (edited October 06, 2000).]

[guitates]

Hey Digi--Now I'm confused--What is the diference in digi PTLE dither and MLCD dither? Also, If you can bounce and stay with 24 bit and burn a CD with MLCD, does that mean that there is No conversion to 16 bit?? JT

[vtone]

>I used ProTools Convert After Bounce to 16bit with No PT or Waves Dither

at this point you've already truncated your wordlengths and no amount of dither after this will help. any steps taken after this will be applying processing to an already 'lopped off' 16 bit file.

>PT Dither w/No CAB and

so in this step you bounced the file WITH DITHER but didn't convert the files? so you bounced a 24 bit file to 24 bit but added noise?

>It was #4 when I allowed PTLE to Convert to 16bit After Bounce and MLCD Dither with NO Noise Shaping.

you can't separate bouncing to 16 and dithering. the proccesses have to occur in conjuction with one another. or else your results are truncated in such a way that is 'unmusical'. which is the whole reason we use dither in the first place, right? so we can control what gets lopped off (mostly inaudible stuff)

you can't convert in PT and dither in MLCD or vice versa. (I mean, you CAN if you want but it defeats the purpose of dither) the two must occur simultaneously for dither to do its job.

as ninemensmorris responded earlier: "you've bounced to 16-bit in ProTools with no dither, you've lopped off the bottom 8 bits, and there's nothing left to dither"

[guitates]

Thanx for the info. I think I actually understand the concept of dithering or adding the noise before converting to 16bits.
I have recently purchased the Waves Native Power Pack and WOW! the explanations of dithering and the Many variations of using IDR lead me to fully understand exactly why Bob O and Editor would endorse IDR. The explanations of this entire subject in the NPP Manual is Incredible. Thanx to all for helping with this subject....JT