M-Powered Lightbridge Limitations

[scoobydoo]

Since Digidesign has decided to cripple PTMP/Lightbridge functionality without explanation, I think it's fair to expect from them some kind of documentation on how PTMP and the Lightbridge are supposed to work together, even in crippled mode. I haven't found any documentation on this, but as far as I can tell, the following seem to be true:

1.) Any interfaces with IO channels numbers on them greater than 18 won't work with PTMP.

2.) Analog outs are always 35 and 36. Therefore, the only way to get them to work is to make them mirror the SPDIF outputs and order the channels so SPDIF channels are first (i.e. make SPDIF channels 1 and 2)

3.) For inputs, ADAT channels are not renumbered based on channel ordering. In other words, you lose channels 1 and 2 of your first ADAT because they now overlap with SPDIF channels 1 and 2.

4.) For outputs, ADAT channels are renumbered based on channel ordering. i.e. the 1st channel of the ADAT 1 is channel #3, the 1st channel of ADAT 2 is #11 and so on.

5.) ADATS 3 and 4 are completely non-functional in PTMP, and can't be used even if you aren't using ADATs 1 and 2. (i.e you can't use ADATs 3 and 4 to solve the conflict with the SPDIF channels outlined above, even if it doesn't exceed the 18 IO limitation.)

So, Digidesign, can you confirm that this is how in your view PTMP and Lightbridge are supposed to work?

A) There a bad company to deal with unless you buy a HD rig. I've never had any good exchanges with them here or on the phone. So be aware of that. And they're not good at making comprehensive FAQ's and troubleshooting sections either. This situation is also M-Audio's fault for not providing good documentation on how to interface M-Powered with the lightbridge. It's kind of a SNAFU. We're left trying to figure it out on our own.

B) I understand your frustration at the lack of information but the folks here are usually trying to help so please be patient. For some reason the M-Audio section of these forums are the least active. I find myself finding answers faster over at gearslutz or in other sections of this forum if it pertains to them. I'll post questions to the TDM/HD or LE forums unless the pertain specicially to M-Audio hardware as of course yours does.

Now let me try and answer a couple of your questions as best I can. I've only had my Lightbridge a few weeks and haven't used more than 16 channels in PT cause I just use Reaper to track live stuff more than 16 channels and import the .wav's into PT for the rest. I have a lot of experimenting to do.

Q-1 Yes your right, inputs over 18 are not recognized. I don't know if you can re-map them in the I/O config menus, I haven't tried yet but I will soon.

Q-2 This is the typical working method yes, again I haven't tried to re-map things yet so I don't know if it's the only way.

Q-3 When you choose to use spdif I/O first, everything is shifted down two inputs, so ADAT 1 becomes input 3 and ADAT 2 becomes input 4 and so on. You should still be able to use 16 channels of ADAT. The 3rd and 4th won't work. Worse is that Pro Tools doen't give you any feedback on what the I/O situation is.

Q-4 Yes, this is correct. Same as the inputs.

Q-5 Don't know about this one, haven't tried. I'll try it soon ad post again when I can find time. Very busy this weekend, sorry.


Once again, roll over to Gearslutz and search over there, they've got more information. It's still a good peice for me so far especially for mobile work on my laptop. 32 channels to my laptop with the ability to mix and edit in PT? Yes please.

One other thing to know is you'll pretty much HAVE to use an add-on firewire card if you don't have one. These things HATE on board Firewire. They should tell you that right on the damn box! In stead you have to go through the hell of having it now work, you don't know why, and then going out and buying one. Talk about shoddy customer realtions! I don't know why I haven't switched to Cubase yet.

[kafka]

Thanks for the input, scoobydoo. I'm not really very concerned about the 18 I/O limitation. I understand why from a support point of view they may not want to deal with performance issues for 34 channels. Regardless, it's not my problem, as I only have 16 channels of I/O to begin with.

Similarly, the ability to use ADATs 3 and 4 aren't that important to me, except that they could possible provide a workaround for the 2 channels that overlap between the S/PDIF and the ADAT.

Also, notice what I've written for Q4. What I've found is that the outputs are not renumbered. Is this not the case with your system?

My main concern is the loss of my first 2 ADAT channels due to the overlap, and the loss of the ability to do hardware inserts due to the inconsistent channel renumbering when putting S/PDIF first. I'd be happy if this were corrected, and if the other limitations were documented.

[DigiTechSupt]

In a typical configuration, inputs 1 and 2 should be SPDIF, with the next 16 channels of ADAT being numbered 3-18. There should be no overlap.

You cannot remap inputs or outputs - the specific configuration of analog outs mirroring SPDIF and the first 2 ADAT optical ports being mapped to channels 1-18 is the only way this works with Pro Tools. ADAT inputs 3 and 4 are non-functional when used with Pro Tools.

We are in the process of writing a PDF and FAQ for the Lightbridge. Other projects have taken precedence over this, but we should have it done in relatively short order.

[kafka]

OK, interesting. I'm definitely seeing channels 1 and 2 overlapping with the ADAT, but only on inputs. On outputs, ADAT 1 starts at channel 3.

Thanks for getting back on this. I'm looking forward to whatever information you publish.

[Chris Watkins]

I would *REALLY* like to see something done about the I/OI numbering not matching
if it breaks i/o's for external effects. Considering if somebody played in the 18 I/O limit;
not being able to use those is really nasty. I was considering trying one out, but M-Audio told me on the phone that the following was supposed to be possible:

use Adat ports 1-2 for tracking; Using the Spdif as montioring outputs; getting 16 i/o's.
Swapping The driver doing a "MIX MODE"
and using 16 channels for external FX on ports 3-4
and using the spdif for monitoring.
So say you have 4 behringer ada8000's;
That's 16 channels for tracking;
16 channels for external FX. (I have 64 on a MIX + rig; so I'm considering this so see how badly/if I want 7.x at all; considering I wouldn't get adc. just loose channels.)

SO;

The only problem I see here is that one might not be able to monitor in the external FX config;
but supposedly that wasn't an issue. cause that's what the +2 i/o's is for.

Now; Calling M-audio was handy; I was told it should work;

But a actual user says it hoses the I/O numbers; hosing the ability to do external FX.

So what's the DEAL with the reorder?

GEEZE; What does it take to convince you guys to at least give us cheap semi creative never have a dime probably will never make it wanta bees that can only afford native rigs and steinberg products a break and give us a complete product... The only downside it we'll make money and buy HD for @$#%@$ SAKE.

[kafka]

OK, I think I've got this figured one out. DigiTechSupport said that the channels should not overlap, but that it's also not possible to do anything about it in PT. So, that brings us back to the Lightbridge.

I was working with the 5043 and earlier drivers before. I un/reinstalled them several times, which did not improve anything. Then I uninstalled 5043, and installed the 5053 driver. This fixed the channel overlap problem, and everything worked inside Protools as DigiTechSupport said. i.e. S/PDIF was on channels 1 and 2, ADAT 1 was channels 3-10 on both inputs and outputs, and ADAT 2 was on channels 11-18. ADATs 3 and 4 were useless, as DTS said, but I don't really care about that.

However, with 5053 I also lost the ability to use the Lightbridge for other audio apps. Someone explained to me offline (this is not documented anywhere that I see) that 5053 is not a WDM driver (whatever that means), and 5043 is, and so there might be some issue with using the non-WDM driver for other apps. Since 5053 doesn't update Lightbridge firmware (as 5053 did for the 1814), I figured there wasn't any harm in going back to 5043. When I did, I found that all channels were ordered correctly, and I regained the ability to use the LB with other apps.

I don't know why this process was so roundabout. There are absolutely no diagnostics or logs that can help in figuring out what's going on. M-Audio support was absolutely worthless. But, in the end, it works well enough, so I'm happy. It would be nice to use ADAT 3 and 4, even with the 18 I/O limitation, just to avoid cable swapping. However, that's not an issue for me at this point. I'd be more interested in useful documentation.

[Skeyelab]

Digidesign - your paying customers need an explanation. Why is it so important for you to disable more than 18 I/O's that you would ruin the ability to do hardware inserts in the process?

you really need to stop asking digi for an answer here and just pick up the phone and calling them. this is now 3 times youhave asked

[pmklein]

1.) Any interfaces with IO channels numbers on them greater than 18 won't work with PTMP.

Does that mean that if you have the Lightbridge and 3 ADAT interfaces you can still only have 18 channels in PTMP? That would be a slap in the face.

[dillon99999]

well then you've been slapped - i hope it didn't / doesn't hurt too much.

18 i/o limit - period.

you can only "record" 18 tracks simultaneously - regardless of what interface or version of pro tools you are using (with LE & M-Powered software).

an HD system is necessary to break through the 18 input limitation.

people complain about it all the time - but digi is not changing it's position on this limitation.

life just isn't fair - so it's time to get out your checkbook or acquire a loan / mortgage.

personally, i feel as though 18 is more than enough inputs to do recordings in a home / project studio.

anything above that limit would be at the level of a professional studio.

[scoobydoo]

"
personally, i feel as though 18 is more than enough inputs to do recordings in a home / project studio.

anything above that limit would be at the level of a professional studio. "


I have to debate that rationale with you. LE/M-powered is at the level of a professional studio. You can do 95% of what you can do with a TDM rig and the last %5 is really ancillary. So what you have is a product that is absolutely professional and will do anything you would need it to do in a pro studio environment but it's got this silly limitation that pisses us right off. And your only option around it is 15x the price. It's like saying here's a Porche for $20,000 and it's the same as the 911 but you can only hit 80 with it cause there's a governor we put on the engine to make people pay $100,000 for the exact same car that'll do 200 because it's got no governor. Hey, you really need this car that's 5x more cause it's got no governor! Oh and we put a CD player in the dash as well. It's the one thing holding native systems back from being WAY more popular. And the only reason they do this is protect there pricing structure with regard to the way overpriced TDM hardware. I mean honestly, who the hell needs DSP cards these days when our PC's have quad core 3GHZ cpu's? Nobody that's who. And soon they'll be 8 core mofo's. But they wanna keep selling us $1500 HD cards and $80 cables and such. And the only way we'll buy them is if they force us too. Other wise studio's would buy a lightbridge and a bunch of outboard A/D D/A and save themselves $10,000. They're protecting a pricing strategy that's 15 years old.

I remember getting red in the face about 8 years ago when I helped installed the first TDM rig here at the local University's music department. Mix Plus rig, Mac G4, etc...We compared the way the rig ran next to a digi 001/PC rig with the same session and the same plugs. The 001 handled almost everything the Mix rig could. Everybody was like "What's the point? We just got majorly ripped off."
The only real good reason to buy that TDM rig was for it's I/O expandability. It was 8 times as much.


lame.

Sorry to rant. Digi makes me grumpy.