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Old 10-13-2018, 05:00 AM
eaglecanyon1952 eaglecanyon1952 is offline
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Default Latency and system configuration help!

I am new to PT, been using Cubase and now jumped in to PT and having a little issue.
My set up is I am using a Windows 7 premium Dell Computer and currently it only has 12GB of ram installed (can go 16 max) it's a I7 2600 3.4ghz processor. Samsung ssd boot and Os drive and 7200 rpm secondary drives.

At the moment I am using Protools with my Sony DMXr100 digital mixer, where I use the Sony as my preamps and direct output to protools via RME Raydat and ADAT lightpipes. I currently track at 48k exclusively. I then Output Protools back to the Sony to mix on the board (just because I am use to the good old console setups)... and it is working quite well.

Everything seems to be working fine and actually sounds great.... the problem comes when you start to pile on the plugins and begin overdubs (mainly vocals) that's where the latency starts to pile up. ( have the system set at 256. If I lower the buffer I get the pops and clicks... if I start to trun off the plugins it gets better. While mixing with the higher buffer it works fine for mixing.....

To get around this I find if I let the singer listen to the input rather than the routed signal thru protools we have no problem so that has been the way I've got around that particular problem.

Now for the big question, one of the engineers working with me says it's all just a memory problem and if I get more system memory that problem will go away... but, my current system will max out at 16 gb and I'm not sure the difference between 12 and 16gb willl be that much help and I can not go above 16gb.

My next choice is to replace the PC (can not go mac right now) so I am lookng at a new PC which will be windows 10 (Pro?) or home, minimum 32 gb with a max of 64gb. The new 8xxx cpu 3.xx up to 4.2 ghz. I'll run a SSD for OS and programs. I'll add 7200 rpm storage drives. and so on.

The question I have is will building up a new system with more memory, faster CPU cure the Plug in Latency problem... Or is it just the fact of my configuration using the Sony board as my interface with the RME cards and changing the amount or ram and cpu won't really help in my situation.

Right now I am limited to PT 12 because of my windows 7 so, going to a new computer and Windows 10 I can upgrade to PT 2018 if I want.

Of course a complete change out to MAC with a more recent interface like Apogee would fix the situation but that is a much larger jump than what I want to spend right now! It would mean a complete change out of the system and remove the Sony completely...

I know alot of you folks have good experience on configurations and PC systems I"d like to get your opinion and ideas on this... Will more memory and cpu actually help or is it because of my interface with the Sony I'll never get rid of that latency while using ProTools?

I need to get this squared away and a new computer on order if that will be the solution, so, any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-13-2018, 04:14 PM
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albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

To appreciate where this is coming from, you have 2 things to look at:
#1-playback buffer(256 is too high for anyone tracking and listening to audio from the session). With a Native system(non-HD or HDX card-based), you need to record at a short(low) buffer, and the 64 setting is what I track with.


#2-piling on the plugins....totally depends on what plugins. In the VIEW menu, select Mix Window Shows>Delay Compensation. This adds a row near the bottom of the MIX window where you can see any latency that is caused by plugins. Some will have 0 or near-0 while others might have 630 samples(Waves JJP Drum plugin), 1178 samples(UAD with a PCIe card) or even higher for any plugin with "look-ahead" processing(like mastering plugins or noise gates with the option). While tracking, I don't use any plugin with more than 7 samples(my Amplitube amp sim). Any plugin with more than, say 64 samples of latency is going to cause players to feel like they are hearing an echo or doubling on everything(moral of the story, make high-latency plugins inactive while tracking musicians). And, just in case this is new to you, be aware that a plugin that is bypassed, still causes the same latency. Right-click and Make Inactive will eliminate any latency from that plugin


FYI- Delay Compensation works by finding the track with the most latency and adding delay to every other track so they all match. IOW, compensation can't get rid of latency, it only makes all tracks stay in time with each other
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:10 PM
eaglecanyon1952 eaglecanyon1952 is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

Albee1952, Thanks for your reply and I"ll take a look at the plug in numbers, and yes, the latency gets worse with each plug in.

Are you saying it isn't a lack of memory that is causing this and that if I were to add on more memory and update the processor it won't help? I was thinking of buying a new Dell I7 8930 system and put in either 32gb or 64 Gb of system memory... (the processor would also be faster than my current computer). Like I said, the 12GB on my system I'm told is too low. Since I can not add memory to my current system that means it's time to get a new computer....

if there is anyone in the Nashville area I"d like to hear from you and see what kind of system you are hooked up with.

Dave

I have seen many folks and configurations using the RME card like mine and they are working with a similar set up and it's working fine..

My system is tracking great recording multiple channels and playing them back with no problem or clicks... The issue come in with the Overdubs ... One way I can handle it, I just let the singer listen to the input on the board that is in time... Its just that when playing back thru the ProTools and listening after the plugins we get that delay. This would be a major problem if I had to do multiple overdubs at the same time.

Thanks for the directions on how to check the latency, samples and performance. I am new to all this protools set up and playback.

One question comes to mind, if there is anyone using an analog console with converters and the RME I'd like to hear from you... (Windows PC's) and what ram you are using.

Dave
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Old 10-13-2018, 10:13 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

Post a Sandra report (see “help us help you” top of every DUC web page).

Nobody here can guess if things like memory is an issue, we have no idea what your sessions look like.

Fully optimize your system.

In the playback engine dialogue, make sure ignore errors is not checked, dynamic plugin processing is not set, try disk cache is set to some value say 2GB (yes even with not much memory) to see if disk is your issue. Do all the usual basic troubleshooting, trash prefs, check plugins are up to date, etc.

What exact pro tools AAE crashes do you then get?

Give up on the digital mixer. You have a much better mixer in the box. Interfacing through all this and trying to overdub makes your life harder than it needs to be. And has now got you into this unclear thrashing around mode looking to solve something... (you will likely make much better progress by being very focused on more systemic debugging following the standard troubleshooting steps... folks giving you advice might or might not be right, if they are really technical and can look at your PC and explain how they know what they are saying, or do things like the standard troubleshooting steps then they may be with listening to. If they are just throwing comments at you, ... may be best to ignore). And you are very likely to be better off in the long term simplifying things as much as you can.

Look at plugin latency as suggested.

Reduce number or plugins in use while overdubbing and/or freeze tracks so you can run at a lower buffer size.

Especially if all this is worth your money/effort/business to you do not just go buy a Dell, go buy a PC professional built for Pro Tools. You can ask here for recommendations.. PC tech savvy folks can also find discussions on DUC for building their own PCs.

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 10-13-2018 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 06:46 AM
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albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

Re RAM, I did plenty of low-latency tracking on my older systems with 6-12GB of RAM so it is not a factor(unless your computer is running out of power). As for 32GB vs 64GB, on my last X79/6-core system, I started with 32GB and doubled it after about 8 months, and to be honest, I did not feel any significant improvement(and actually pulled the extra 32GB for a second computer)


Another way to do last-minute overdubs:
Bounce the entire song(from zero) at the same sample rate and bit depth and import after bounce. Nudge this new "2-mix" so that it aligns perfectly with the rest of the session. Make all track inactive(EXCEPT for the 2-mix track) and record your last minute overdubs. Then kill the 2-mix track and activate the rest for mix
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:00 AM
eaglecanyon1952 eaglecanyon1952 is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

Thanks again for the information, I"ll be looking over that information and running the tests suggested.. .I will probably go out to the studio this afternoon and see what I can come out with. That should tell me alot about what I can and cannot do.

As I mentioned before, our initial tracking and mixing seems to work just fine...where I started to hear it is once we had the song mixed and the vocalist want's to re cut a vocal....

So, of course someone that does not use a console and everything in the box is pointing to my console set up.. so< I"m trying to find a way to make it work... the Sony is a wonderful board and great converters...so, I want to make it work.. ( I have no problem running Cubase 9.5 under the same set up).
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:14 AM
eaglecanyon1952 eaglecanyon1952 is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

Darryl, I will run the Sandra test today and post it, but keep in mind, my idea is to get another PC specifically set up with only components and software for ProTools. My current pc has been used for Sony Vegas, Sound Forge and Cubase 9.5 over the last 4 years and I plan to leave that computer to stay that way, hooked to my Focusrite system. I will move my RayDat card and ProTools to a new system. You mentioned a "Professional PC supplier... do you have a name? Believe it or not.... I have a pretty good history in the PC business It's ProTools that is new to me. Feel free to PM me if you would like.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:36 AM
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EGS EGS is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

Great advice above !!! Before replacing your computer, carefully follow every step mentioned above and determine if your current computer meets your needs. If you buy a new computer, you'll still need to perform all these simple optimizations, so you might as well optimize your current rig first. If your rig is properly tweaked out, you can get decent results. I even run an "antiquated" rig (Pro-Tools 9 Vanilla, i7 hex @ 3.9 Ghz) at buffer 64.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:54 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglecanyon1952 View Post
Darryl, I will run the Sandra test today and post it, but keep in mind, my idea is to get another PC specifically set up with only components and software for ProTools. My current pc has been used for Sony Vegas, Sound Forge and Cubase 9.5 over the last 4 years and I plan to leave that computer to stay that way, hooked to my Focusrite system. I will move my RayDat card and ProTools to a new system. You mentioned a "Professional PC supplier... do you have a name? Believe it or not.... I have a pretty good history in the PC business It's ProTools that is new to me. Feel free to PM me if you would like.
To add to Dave's comments on memory, you should hopefully be OK there unless you are doing some memory intensive things like running a bunch of heavy sample based VIs.

Back to you current challenges. Just to be clear there you are going to need to do two broadly separate things.

1.Explore and understand your current latency, check for additional contributions from plugins etc. Lots of good suggestions from Dave there. Also just trying tests to verify the actual latency you are getting can sometimes be useful, that can help highlight if there are other issues besides expected IO buffer latency (like really gross plugins latency or signal routing adding multiple trips though IO buffers).

2. When you try to reduce IO buffer size. You are running into clicks and pops and you don't know why, and we really can't guess. So for that you start by going back to the basics and going though standard systems optimizations and troubleshooting and then seeing how much small you can then make the IO buffer size. Pro Tools can be just very sensitive to the most seemingly silly stuff, so while troubleshooting make sure every optimization has been done, you can try backing off on some things once you have the system running really well. But things like WiFi, Bluetooth, get them all turned off. Make sure recommended BIOS settings are done, etc. And importantly while troubleshooting you want ignore errors not checked... because you want Pro Tools to fail with an AAE error not to be inserting pops and clicks, which you might miss. And sometimes the exact AAE error gives more clue to the problem.

The Sandra report might show something obvious to folks here that you should look at, or might not. But it is worth doing. When you run it make sure all your disk drives are connected (if you use external drives). And let us know what disk partitions shown in the report contain your audio/session files and if you are using sample based VIs which partition those samples are on.

The worse thing to do might be to buy a new PC if a simple change could make the current one meet your needs. And either way, you would need to get up to date with optimization etc. for any new PC.

---

But if you do end up going the new PC route...

If you are comfortable building PCs then the thread to start looking at here is http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=238426

And as one specific point with a modern PC it's not just having SSDs, but you have the opportunity to get incredibly high performance M.2 PCIe/NVMe SSDs even . if you do so via PCIe slot to M.2 drives. Unless you need lots of strage for VI samples or video I would be planning an all M.2 storage in a modern DAW PC. Samsung 970 Evo or Pro are good choices. And M.2 NVMe drives are fast enough, even without disk cache, that for most uses the old rule about needing a dedicated audio/session drive is no longer true.

If you want to go the purchased route the PC builder I would start with is Pro Tools PC USA (https://www.pro-tools-pc.com), and that's largely because guidardom is very active and knowledgeable on DUC.
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:42 PM
eaglecanyon1952 eaglecanyon1952 is offline
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Default Re: Latency and system configuration help!

So, I wanted to check in and bring things up to date. I've started to look at the configuration and the first thing was to go in and turn off hyper-threading and Turbo boost on the CPU in Bios... I downloaded Sandra lite and have tried to run the tests but the tests are stopping at the graphics adapter which I"ll have to look in to.

I have lots to do, lots to learn and working thru things step by step.

I think I said, we are using a high track count of 25+ tracks with lots of plugins... large ones... so, tomorrow I will look at the numbers.... As well as the ram and system performance....

In the sort and the long of it, I have decided to get another PC that will be a specific Pro Tools machine... but that's going to take some time to source.

So the short of it is... I"M not much further ahead of the issue but I"m starting to get a better understanding of where to look and what I need to do...

ProTools is a bit of a different story.. I've been working with PC's and audio for quite a few years.... I guess I just have a lot of work to do to get it right!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.. I do appreciate it and look in to each one with regards to our set up..

Dave

Ps, if any of you are in the Nashville area let me know Were In Lebanon.
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