No Delay Compensation for Automation

[Santa_Clauss]

In Pro Tools 12.4 there is a major issue that essentially prevents all mixing in the box. I'm in disbelief that no-one has freaked on this yet.
When automating in protools, the automation follows the system delay, and doesn't make up for it. Thus making every single move you do, volume, mute, plugin ect, late. Late by whatever your delay is. And it's audible as well. So it's not like you can just shift it back.
I've contacted Avid, and they have marked it as a "bug" and claim they have too many things going on with the release of 12.5 to get to it. This "bug" prevents anyone that mixes to actually "mix".

This is Horrifying!!!
Please!!!!!

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

I've mixed several projects in 12.4, all with automation and have not experienced this. This includes mixing to picture which can definitely make things interesting. All of my bounces are real time so I can hear mixes as they bounce. I am using ADC and LLM (which gives me issues when recording and monitoring the track I am recording) but mixing hasn't been an issue for me.

[Santa_Clauss]

Originally Posted by CygnusX-1Bk2

I've mixed several projects in 12.4, all with automation and have not experienced this. This includes mixing to picture which can definitely make things interesting. All of my bounces are real time so I can hear mixes as they bounce. I am using ADC and LLM (which gives me issues when recording and monitoring the track I am recording) but mixing hasn't been an issue for me.

Are you automating on the fly? or hand drawing?
Automating on the fly has this delay. Avid's techs even confirmed it with me.
If you don't have a huge system delay you might not even notice it.

[dford]

Originally Posted by Santa_Clauss

Are you automating on the fly? or hand drawing?
Automating on the fly has this delay. Avid's techs even confirmed it with me.
If you don't have a huge system delay you might not even notice it.

What is the hardware buffer size being used? If you can drop it down it will lower the overall delay and tighten up and minimize the effect. This is a very real issue, it's not a bug tho. The only way to fix it is to get creative with signal flow, ADC and manual delay comp.

BTW, This has existed since ADC has.

Is this a single system rig or multiples linking over satellite. You can imagine the combined effect with multiple rigs, but I can assure you, it's possible to overcome.

[Brandonx1]

Pro tools has always been like this, not new to 12.4.

[mtung]

It's astonishing that it's still not fixed. I wrestle with this every day. I wonder if the S6 also has this problem. I'm using a d-command and it's just like someone said, it's been like this since the beginning of ADC.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Originally Posted by Santa_Clauss

Are you automating on the fly? or hand drawing?

Both depending but mostly by hand. I draw in clip gain then faders on the fly or by hand when necessary. More often my on the fly moves are on a buss track rather than audio tracks.

[dford]

Originally Posted by mtung

It's astonishing that it's still not fixed. I wrestle with this every day. I wonder if the S6 also has this problem. I'm using a d-command and it's just like someone said, it's been like this since the beginning of ADC.

Yes it still happens with the S6. It's super annoying but it's not a bug, therefore it cannot be fixed and will be on every control surface, mixing console, app, etc.

If you use delay compensation, all audio is being delayed to match the most latent, right? So if audio is being delayed how can it NOT effect the fader and other automation parameters? Answer = It cannot. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can however re-think your signal flow. Get creative with your processing (think DSP VS native plugin chain order, the delay comes from all the round-tripping between processors. DSP, Native, DSP, Native is like planning a bad road trip don't do it unless your attempting to achieve something sonically), video sync offsets, ADC and manual DC. Don't forget your HW buffer size, this doesn't need to be jacked to 1024 unless you know you need that, dropping it down will reduce your system delay. The goal here is to minimize your overall system delay to a point that this "fader lag" is virtually undetectable.

Most hardware effect boxes can be significantly faster than their software counterparts. Bring back the hardware racks

Think about non realtime processing with audio suite. Do you really need that plugin as an insert or can you just process it as required?

The moral of this story is there is a lot of legacy in the transition to "inside the box" mixing. A lot of bad habits, a lot of redundant routing, antiquated signal flows. Do yourself a favour....trash your template and rebuild from the ground up, you're just might find a better way to work....

[Santa_Clauss]

Originally Posted by dford

Yes it still happens with the S6. It's super annoying but it's not a bug, therefore it cannot be fixed and will be on every control surface, mixing console, app, etc.

If you use delay compensation, all audio is being delayed to match the most latent, right? So if audio is being delayed how can it NOT effect the fader and other automation parameters? Answer = It cannot. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can however re-think your signal flow. Get creative with your processing (think DSP VS native plugin chain order, the delay comes from all the round-tripping between processors. DSP, Native, DSP, Native is like planning a bad road trip don't do it unless your attempting to achieve something sonically), video sync offsets, ADC and manual DC. Don't forget your HW buffer size, this doesn't need to be jacked to 1024 unless you know you need that, dropping it down will reduce your system delay. The goal here is to minimize your overall system delay to a point that this "fader lag" is virtually undetectable.

Most hardware effect boxes can be significantly faster than their software counterparts. Bring back the hardware racks

Think about non realtime processing with audio suite. Do you really need that plugin as an insert or can you just process it as required?

The moral of this story is there is a lot of legacy in the transition to "inside the box" mixing. A lot of bad habits, a lot of redundant routing, antiquated signal flows. Do yourself a favour....trash your template and rebuild from the ground up, you're just might find a better way to work....

I guess you don't work with UAD? The second you put a UAD plug in a track, or buss that a track is going to there's inescapable delay, which is extremely noticeable in fader moves...

[dford]

Originally Posted by Santa_Clauss

I guess you don't work with UAD? The second you put a UAD plug in a track, or buss that a track is going to there's inescapable delay, which is extremely noticeable in fader moves...

I have used UAD Apollo's and Quads, albeit not everyday....

The PT HW Buffer size does play a role in this overall delay even with UAD plugs so if possible you should attempt to lower it, and again, you can optimize signal flow further to avoid accumulating delays. However, it sounds like you have found the culprit. ADC isn't faulty - You are attempting to use some UAD pigs.

Good luck...