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  #1  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:29 PM
jgiannis jgiannis is offline
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Default Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

Hi. I am mixing audio for a short animation. I have a question about how to achieve proper stems. That is, to my understanding, if you have stems and mix them together, you should yield the exact same file as a mixed track (or am I wrong about this?). But I don't know how to do that, because my final mix aux always has compressors on it, whereas the individual stems don't.

Here's what I have so far:

- a Dialogue AUX track (I have several DX tracks, and they all get bussed into this aux)
- a Effects AUX track (I have many FX tracks, and they all get bussed into this aux)
- a Music AUX track (I have a couple of MX tracks, and they all get bussed into this aux)

In essence, these are already my stems. But they do not have compression on them. That gets applied in the next step:

- a Comp AUX (the 3 aux tracks from above get summed into this composite aux)

This Comp AUX is, in essence, my mix. But then I add some compression/limiting plugins.

So the question is, how do I "extract" the 3 stems (DX, FX, MX) out of this mixed track? The difference between these stems and the first ones I listed would be in terms of the compression. If I were to simply apply the same compressors to the initial 3 aux tracks, the compressors would't react the same as they do in the Comp aux. So those stems also wouldn't sum into the same mix.
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  #2  
Old 04-22-2020, 01:48 PM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

I wouldn't worry about having the same exact file. What matters is the sound. I'd approach it the same way as you would a regular music session: light compression on each stem and compression on the final aux. This way, amongst other things, the compressor on the final aux wouldn't be working as hard. So the compressors don't react the same way - who cares? As long as the final product sounds right. Don't sweat the details so much.



I don't know what you mean by 'extract' the 3 stems. Please explain - extract what?


Remember that in audio there are no hard and fast rules - as long as you don't clip the output
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  #3  
Old 04-22-2020, 02:58 PM
henningaround henningaround is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I wouldn't worry about having the same exact file. What matters is the sound. I'd approach it the same way as you would a regular music session: light compression on each stem and compression on the final aux. This way, amongst other things, the compressor on the final aux wouldn't be working as hard. So the compressors don't react the same way - who cares? As long as the final product sounds right. Don't sweat the details so much.



I don't know what you mean by 'extract' the 3 stems. Please explain - extract what?


Remember that in audio there are no hard and fast rules - as long as you don't clip the output
+1
Most common use of stems imo is
1 to edit a new pic cut out of it (shorter TV Version...)
2 to edit a trailer out of it
In both cases a new print will be created which has to be mixed again anyway.
That said the original purpose of stems to me is to give another person on a later stage limited possibilities to change things. Exchange a music cue, exchange an ADR line...
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Old 04-23-2020, 04:40 AM
midnightrambler midnightrambler is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

This is incidental really, but from a music perspective I've had occasions where the summed stems actually sound better than the actual "full" mix...
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  #5  
Old 04-23-2020, 06:29 AM
its2loud its2loud is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

All of these answers are incorrect. You are approaching your post production mix like a music mix and mastering session which is, by design, going to yield the wrong stem output. The sum of your stems should equal your final mix. All processing should be done on the DIA MX FX busses to achieve your final mix.

You can have a final mix master with a true peak limiter on it but the same processing limiter should also be on your stems masters.

The reason for all of this is so your mix can be used in a foreign country with replaced dialogue and the foreign mix will equal your domestic mix.
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Old 04-24-2020, 12:37 AM
henningaround henningaround is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

Quote:
Originally Posted by its2loud View Post
All of these answers are incorrect. You are approaching your post production mix like a music mix and mastering session which is, by design, going to yield the wrong stem output. The sum of your stems should equal your final mix. All processing should be done on the DIA MX FX busses to achieve your final mix.



You can have a final mix master with a true peak limiter on it but the same processing limiter should also be on your stems masters.



The reason for all of this is so your mix can be used in a foreign country with replaced dialogue and the foreign mix will equal your domestic mix.
Maybe you got something wrong. He is asking about stems and not a real M&E - which is by design absolutely different to the original mix because there is obviously no dialog in it and lots of Foleys which hadn't been used in the original mix because of the broader use of production sound.
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Old 04-28-2020, 03:49 AM
noeqplease noeqplease is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

Typically, you print your stems through EXACTLY the same signal chain.


I have done this since forever, and no complaints so far.


Some people think they "have" to treat the stems differently, if they do not "see" the final limiter working. That is nonsense.


The purpose is to impart the same sonics as the final mix.



Of course, the final mix, with all the tracks in it, will make the final signal chain behave differently. This is why you provide notes along with the stems, in case the other mixer needs to either copy what you did, or to change what you did. That would be up to them, not you.
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2020, 06:49 AM
its2loud its2loud is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

Quote:
Originally Posted by henningaround View Post
Maybe you got something wrong. He is asking about stems and not a real M&E - which is by design absolutely different to the original mix because there is obviously no dialog in it and lots of Foleys which hadn't been used in the original mix because of the broader use of production sound.
Definitely didn’t get something wrong. I understood exactly what the OP was asking. There is just a difference of opinion when it comes to stems, ME, dipped, undipped, etc between Europe and the US.

The OP said this “ if you have stems and mix them together, you should yield the exact same file as a mixed track”

And then said this. “ But I don't know how to do that, because my final mix aux always has compressors on it, whereas the individual stems don't.”

To which someone replied “ I wouldn't worry about having the same exact file. What matters is the sound. I'd approach it the same way as you would a regular music session:”

Which is absolutely wrong for Post Audio. IMHO
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2020, 11:35 AM
henningaround henningaround is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

Quote:
Originally Posted by its2loud View Post
Definitely didn’t get something wrong. I understood exactly what the OP was asking. There is just a difference of opinion when it comes to stems, ME, dipped, undipped, etc between Europe and the US.



The OP said this “ if you have stems and mix them together, you should yield the exact same file as a mixed track”



And then said this. “ But I don't know how to do that, because my final mix aux always has compressors on it, whereas the individual stems don't.”



To which someone replied “ I wouldn't worry about having the same exact file. What matters is the sound. I'd approach it the same way as you would a regular music session:”



Which is absolutely wrong for Post Audio. IMHO
Ok maybe I don't know exactly what I'm talking about. What do you think is the reason to print stems which equal the final mix exactly?
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2020, 11:57 AM
its2loud its2loud is offline
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Default Re: Stems pre-mix-bus, vs Stems post-mix-bus

In case production wants to Re-edit or Re purpose a show but has limited budget and can’t go back into the mix. They can edit with the DIA MX FX stems and output a full mix Re-edited and not have to remix necessarily. Or, maybe they just want to replace the music and not DIA or FX. Then they can just rebalance the new music and not have to touch the DIA or FX. Happens all the time. You can’t do that with just an ME.


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