What's the next step for Digidesign?

[Stiff]

Kirkland,

I don't think you're right. The price difference between 003 Factory and HD1 (especially a used one) isn't that big, if that's the gap you're referring to. What I do think you're right in is the crippled LE software, (and I feel you there, I'm spending less and less time in PT whenever I'm on native) and if that isn't good enough for you and you don't have the money to go HD1 then I understand that you're looking elsewhere for solutions, but Digidesign have still pretty much covered it. Yes, yes... I also want a "HD light", or whatever, priced somewhere between the 003 Factory and HD1, but the gap isn't really that big... Especially not if you're a company with work coming in.

[Kirkland]

Kirkland,

I don't think you're right. The price difference between 003 Factory and HD1 (especially a used one) isn't that big, if that's the gap you're referring to. What I do think you're right in is the crippled LE software, (and I feel you there, I'm spending less and less time in PT whenever I'm on native) and if that isn't good enough for you and you don't have the money to go HD1 then I understand that you're looking elsewhere for solutions, but Digidesign have still pretty much covered it. Yes, yes... I also want a "HD light", or whatever, priced somewhere between the 003 Factory and HD1, but the gap isn't really that big... Especially not if you're a company with work coming in.

I can't agree with that. Because there is a slightly smaller monetary gap between the 003 and an HD1, they now suddenly have the whole spectrum covered? The 003 still uses the same lacking version of Pro Tools that the Mbox Mini uses at $299 so this doesn't really add any solution to Digidesign's one-end-or-the-other philosophy. For $2200 I could buy an 003- it would still come with LE and all it's limitations, it would force me to buy a control surface (which I could care less about) and it would have only very average fidelity. Now, for $600 more, I could buy an Ensemble- which would have considerably better sound quality and Cubase 4 which would have delay compensation, quite a bit more than 32 tracks, superior MIDI sequencing,surround mixing capability, better video handling etc. etc. I want to know if and when they'll offer something competitive to this type of system.

[whitecat]

I can't agree with that. Because there is a slightly smaller monetary gap between the 003 and an HD1, they now suddenly have the whole spectrum covered? The 003 still uses the same lacking version of Pro Tools that the Mbox Mini uses at $299 so this doesn't really add any solution to Digidesign's one-end-or-the-other philosophy. For $2200 I could buy an 003- it would still come with LE and all it's limitations, it would force me to buy a control surface (which I could care less about) and it would have only very average fidelity. Now, for $600 more, I could buy an Ensemble- which would have considerably better sound quality and Cubase 4 which would have delay compensation, quite a bit more than 32 tracks, superior MIDI sequencing,surround mixing capability, better video handling etc. etc. I want to know if and when they'll offer something competitive to this type of system.

Exactly - and while the price difference between a 003 Factory and a single HD1 card might not be "that big,' (I disagree, I think it is 'that big') - it doesn't really take into account the necessity of an interface with an HD system.

So - here in the UK - 003 Factory (the most expensive one) - £1,650 if you shop around.
HD1 card - £5,450. That's just the card/software. You need to spend at least £1,300 more to get a 96i/o, which might be the least expensive option. So you're pretty much on nearly 5x the price of an LE system.

[Stiff]

For $2200 I could buy an 003- it would still come with LE and all it's limitations, it would force me to buy a control surface (which I could care less about) and it would have only very average fidelity. Now, for $600 more, I could buy an Ensemble- which would have considerably better sound quality and Cubase 4 which would have delay compensation, quite a bit more than 32 tracks, superior MIDI sequencing,surround mixing capability, better video handling etc. etc. I want to know if and when they'll offer something competitive to this type of system.

Now this is something I agree on. I wasn't really arguing for which was the best solution, if you thought so then you misinterpreted my post or I worded it badly (or both). I think we might have misunderstood each other, my comment on Digidesign covering the entire spectrum had more to do with how much people are spending on the system than about how good their products are.

I want to know if and when they'll offer something competitive to this type of system.

For starters they would have to bring us a better HD system! The midi sequencing is inferior in HD as well. I would also be interested to see ONE Pro Tools and just hardware changes, hopefully together with a rewriting so it isn't as hungry on the CPU as it is now (and so damn picky!).

The dream is of course one (or a couple of) basic card priced around the 002/003 series that is modular with DSP cards and all that jazz that makes HD today. I suppose that won't happen but I feel that the consumers really end up as the losers when Pro Tools is divided in LE and HD.

[Stiff]

I see your point terminal3. The conclusion I've drawn is mostly based on who spends that kind of money on a system. It may sound harsh, but if one doesn't run a business that generates money, then I don't see the point of going HD. For a business of the type I'm describing, the gap really isn't that big (yeah, yeah, I know, that could be discussed ) and should be seen as an investment rather then as an expense. Do you know what I mean?

[LaForestPoetry18]

WOW... I've read through this tread today, and reflected back to a few others that I have read, since I've been using Pro Tools since 2005 & have been very happy with it., I mainly use 2 LE systems, and have used an HD 3 also. The thing that strikes me funny & some what curious, is why do people get upset with a system, that tells you up-front that it's "LE-Limited Edition", not a full-blown/featured-blown system. The other systems. to which Pro Tools Le are most compared to, aren't "LE", they are the full-blown/full-featured versions of those programs, not "Limited Editions".

I'm not making excuses or sticking up for DIGIdesin, but stating the facts, no-one who made the purchase was blind-sided, @ least I know that I wasn't. I tried every program that was out there, talked to people that were using these different programs, went & did research, got on forums, read mags, and made a educated decision, which I am very, very happy with. Yes, it would be great if DIGI came up with a reasonable middle-ground between "LE & HD", but I'm not gonna blame them for the purchase/descion that I made. If someone decides to stop dealing with a company, I would hope that it would be based off of an educated descion, rather than an emotional one.

As far as people stating that they are "limted" by "LE", to be honest, tjose same people would be limted with an HD system, creativty comes from within, your drive & getting the best out of what you have. Limted tracks are one thing, but the other issues are self inflected... in some cases (Limted funds are a reality, period... I know). I've done one film sound track & I am currently working on a second film soundt rack & score, using PT LE 7.3

Console: DIGI 002/003

Computers: Mac G5 2.0GHz dual core, Power book G4 2.0GHz, Spectral Cube-1100 PC

Hardware: MBox

Software: Pro Tools 7.3, Reason 3.0, LIVE 5, Sony Vegas 4.0 Plug-ins & Effects: Waves Diamond Bundle, SSL 4000, GTR, IR-1, Q-Clone, Z-Noise, 360 Surround, Vocal Bundle, L3, Oxford Inflator, Altiverb 5, Auto-Tune 5, AVOX, IK Total Studio Bundle, Power Suite 5, Sound Soap Pro, Echo Farm, Smack!, TL Space

Mic Pre's: Avalon 737sp, PreSonus Blue Tubes

Mic's: Bluebird, U-87, AT-4040, Rode NTK

Keyboards: Fantom X-6, Korg M-1, microKORG, Triton Rack, Motif Rack ES, Fantom-XR, microKONTROL, padKONTROL

Monitors: NS-10, M1 Active 620, Truth B2031A, Tapco S-5 w/ 10" sub, DM-10 (Mackie Big Knob)

Headphones: HD 280 Pro, AKG K240's, DT 770 Pro

La Forest

[whitecat]

La Forest, the point you're missing is that sometimes LE buyers, who do know what they're getting into when they get into LE (myself included) - outgrow LE, but can't justify HD (because I agree with Stiff, HD is a business investment at the prices it's at).

I started with LE, I still happily use it but as my needs increase for more features (more tracks, more buses, ADC would be nice, etc) - I need to expand. The Toolkits helped that somewhat - adding the DV Toolkit 2 to my system gave me a lot of the features that I needed to grow into, but we're not totally there yet.

So those users need more 'stuff,' but they don't necessarily need the TDM processing because native power is so readily available for such low prices these days, and they need to look elsewhere - to Logic, to Cubase, to Nuendo, to DP, wherever. The only reason I haven't jumped ship is that I don't really feel like learning a new platform at this point - I can work reasonably efficiently in Pro Tools, and that's 80% of any system.

What I'd like is essentially a fully-featured version of Pro Tools (a-la-HD), I would be fine if it was tied to a hardware box like LE (as long as said hardware box is of reasonable quality) but not requiring PCI cards, and at a lot lower price than PT|HD currently sells for. There would still be a market for the TDM/Accel stuff - pro studios who need the guaranteed stability, TDM plugs, track-counts etc. and predictable environments would still go for the PCI-based solutions. People like me could go for the mid-level choice that gives you fully-featured software but power restricted completely to your computer system, and there could still be an entry-level option a la LE or M-Powered that gives you a great entry-level setup at a very reasonable price.

Basically, it's this - Digidesign isn't going to get an HD sale out of me. Audio and music production make up a small part of my professional income (I'm in filmmaking) - a part nonetheless, but I can't justify an HD setup. So if they want more money, more investment from my end, they need a smaller step up that I can take that will expand my capabilities but keep me in the family.

[Kirkland]

It's not a question of knowing that it's LE upfront or not. If I go into a restaurant and they tell me that all they offer is either Ramen noodles or fillet mignon I'm not going to say "well, they told me upfront, sounds good to me". Especially when there are 6 other restaurants, all within walking distance that offer a wider selection. I'm like Terminal, if HD is all Digi has to offer beyond LE, they just simply won't get my money.

"As far as people stating that they are "limted" by "LE", to be honest, tjose same people would be limted with an HD system, creativty comes from within, your drive & getting the best out of what you have. Limted tracks are one thing, but the other issues are self inflected... in some cases?"

Well, I am someone who states that they are limited by LE and to be honest, I would put my creativity, engineering, editing, arranging and composing skills next to just about anyone's. I could dig a hole in my back yard with spoon if I really wanted to, but don't you think a shovel would work a little better? I wouldn't feel ashamed of my lack of creativity for wanting to use the more appropriate tool either. Wanting a system that provides the path of least resistance to your finished product doesn't mean that you aren't creative and good at what you do, it's just common sense.

[mickdoo22]

I think it is all relative. No matter what feature sets and functions you build into a product you will have 50% who are blown away and happy, and 50% who just arent satisfied. I try to put it into perspective....in the early 80's I bought the latest and greatest home recording "technology"....a Tascam Portastudio 144....I think it cost me like $800! What a steal, a 4 track with a built in mixer that used cheap tape. No effects, editing, etc....in fact, those features were not really a dream yet at that point.
Flash forward to 2007. I bought a Digi 002 Factory Bundle. Digital recording, 32 tracks, midi sequencing, full compliment of effects, automation, total recall, flying faders, virtual instruments, on and on and on......paid $1495.00 brand new! That is likely $800 in 1981 dollars. For what Pro Tools LE is, it is an absolutely killer deal. Engineers in 1980 would have KILLED for 1/10th of the cabilities of LE for 10 times the price! Many albums recorded in the 70's with ratty old consoles and 16 track analog tape machines still sound fantastic today, because audio engineers concentrated on getting everything they could out of their gear, and when they couldn't get what they needed, they found CREATIVE ways to make it happen. These days we bitch about the track limitations...(32 tracks just doesn't cut it), and on and on. It's kinda comical really.
Does PT LE have limitations?.....sure.........is there a gap between LE and HD in terms of features verses the competition?....perhaps.....but I am thrilled to have the capabilities I have for the money, and those features I might someday wish I had will never hamstring me.
By the way....I still have that Portastudio.....did some pretty cool stuff with in back in the day.

[tele_player]

Ignoring the limitations and missing features in ProTools LE, I still just wish they'd do an LE interface that isn't weak in comparison to many other cheaper interfaces available for all the other native DAWS.

The 002 was OK, but I don't know if the 003 is a step forward, or just a cost reduction measure. I do know that no ProTools LE interface I've owned (Mbox, Mbox2, Mbox2 Pro, Digi 002) was as good as my Focusrite Saffire, which cost $400.

ProTools LE software is worth money - maybe $500, if I could use it with real hardware.