Dolby 7. Is everybody mixing at this level?

[MIKEROPHONICS]

I think personally I have more beef with the commercials than with the movie level issue.

I am not saying that the level thing is not an issue, but you will always get duff multiplexes with poor installations, and muppets who turn it down and no amount of dolby police will cure that. Joe Public has low standards of quality.

Much of the blame must be laid at the commercials door - again! If you weren't so damn loud people would deviate from the holy grail of 7 (I always thought the answer to life the universe and everything was 42?).
I remember seeing a trailer for a Harry Potter movie at my local ODEON flea pit that darn nearly cut my head off. I have never heard such a congested heap of audio soup in a long time. Loud and unintelligible. Shame on you big time! Imagine the budget of that trailer?

I care massively about films as a BAFTA film (& TV) voting member, but unless we (and that includes you Dolby!) get out act together and sort out these commercials, what chance of improvement? It would seem that the TV folk may be ahead of the game here.

cheers

[Ray JB]

Agreed Mikerphonics! Well put.

[Noiz2]

Originally Posted by Ray JB

Minister it is an emotive topic indeed. Not dissing you at all. The guidelines in New Zealand http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/cat...se-control.pdf seem a bit lower and I copy/paste from that doc:-


But as you state and the US docs say 90 dBA for 8 hours. This exposure level of course decreases sharply if you are exposed to higher levels than 95 dBA etc.

Ray

OSHA is also not a good reference since it is way biased in favor of loud environments.

Quoted from an article on Noise Induced Hearing loss.

Noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) typically is centered at 3000, 4000, or 6000 Hz. As noise damage progresses, damage starts affecting lower and higher frequencies. On an audiogram, the resulting configuration has a distinctive notch, sometimes referred to as a "noise notch." As aging and other effects contribute to higher frequency loss (6–8 kHz on an audiogram), this notch may be obscured and entirely disappear.
Louder sounds cause damage in a shorter period of time. Estimation of a "safe" duration of exposure is possible using an exchange rate of 3 dB. As 3 dB represents a doubling of intensity of sound, duration of exposure must be cut in half to maintain the same energy dose. For example, the "safe" daily exposure amount at 85 dB A, known as an exposure action value, is 8 hours, while the "safe" exposure at 91 dB(A) is only 2 hours (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, 1998). Note that for some people, sound may be damaging at even lower levels than 85 dB A. Exposures to other ototoxins (such as pesticides, some medications including chemotherapy, solvents, etc.) can lead to greater susceptibility to noise damage, as well as causing their own damage. This is called a synergistic interaction.
Some American health and safety agencies (such as OSHA-Occupational Safety and Health Administration and MSHA-Mine Safety and Health Administration), use an exchange rate of 5 dB. While this exchange rate is simpler to use, it drastically underestimates the damage caused by very loud noise. For example, at 115 dB, a 3 dB exchange rate would limit exposure to about half a minute; the 5 dB exchange rate allows 15 minutes.

[MIKEROPHONICS]

mmm - this reminds me of the famous aims minim system at BBC TV centre.
Studio SPL was measured and if it exceeded a threshold, power was cut to the PA and amps. It quickly got turned off!
Lenny Kravitz (apart from being a tosser about what drum overheads looked coolest) was deafening!

I also remember being on the studio floor crew of BBC's Top Of The Pops in the late 80's and being unable to hear my limited talkback cans, unless I wore ear defenders over the top. NOT FUNNY.

Thank gawd I am not a drummer.... your ears are your friends, look after them!

[Noiz2]

Originally Posted by dr sound

Scott,
I will agree that 300 was loud.
How many "Feature Films" have you personally mixed on a "Dub Stage"?
How many Directors have you told how loud you felt it should be mixed?
What is your criteria?
Once again it's not Dolby's issue, and no it's not a "cop out".
When the finished product all becomes DCP then the problem will get out of hand. Too many Mixers who mix in tiny rooms at low spl pushing levels to make it sound loud to young Directors who have neither the experience or knowledge of what should sound good. At that time Dolby will not even be a part of the equation. Listen to most of the commercials before the movie. They sound like hell.

Marti, are we going to start a credit war? A dub stage or the Dub Stage;~)? FAR fewer than you, but I have done a few and I have worked in a bunch more.
You are the clear winner.
And that relates how?

It was the Saul Zaentz Film Center that used to stick the SLP record for the day up. It was often over 100.

My criteria? Ah well when I'm mixing and I think it's too loud I lower the levels. I mean that is what our job is right? Using our "criteria" for what sounds good. On a more universal level when I need to wear ear plugs or leave the theatre. But I don't think a standard can be set around "my criteria", I think it needs to be something measurable. Heck maybe it's just labeling. Right after the rating you get a peak and average SPL for the film.

But I think I may not have been clear or you mis read.

So, I agree that it's not Dolby's job. The "cop out" is the attitude that as an industry we just don't have anything to do with it and the guy running the theatre needs to just live with it. It's not Dolby copping out it's us.

I have told a fair number of directors they want it too hot. But those would not be on your big funded film so I have probably more pull than your average mixer.

But I am not saying that Mixers have to fight with the director. You can push the point a bit but only so far. But I think as an industry we need to acknowledge it as a problem and should work for a solution. In the end it would need to be something like an Academy standard that the studios signed off on or it wouldn't stick. But that will never happen till groups like CAS say, start talking about it and pushing for it.

As individuals there isn't that much you can do, but as a group you can have some traction.

You are right about the ads, but that doesn't let the film off the hook.

My major point was as much as I hate to defend the theatres I don't think one can go off on them for trying to treat the symptoms and not acknowledge the underlying disease.

[Steven1145]

I think this issue has been around... well, since Dolby introduced boxes with the number 7 on them!

Here is my personnal opinion and policy: I mix at 84dB to compensate for the size of my room vs a larger cinema. If I'm freelancing and mixing in a bigger room than Yellow Cab then I mix at 7. I will not waver from that policy.
It's not possible to compensate for theaters that screen the film at 5.5, because then you'll have to compensate for them screening at 5 and then 4.5 and then 4 and then 3.5 every time mixers decide to compensate again.
Why not mix everything only to the center channel to compensate for theaters with blown L-R speakers while we're at it?
Even though all Dolby-printmastered films are made with a Dolby consultant present at the end, he has no say to limit the levels if a film is mixed at stupid levels. Otherwise the very loud US films of the 90's and early 2000's would not have been so loud. And as Marti says, with everyone and his dog now being able to deliver 6 wav files to the DCP authoring facility, things are bound to go south pretty quickly.

That is why we, the re-recording mixers, have a DUTY in making sure that a mix is made to the highest QUALITY standards for our clients. Soon Dolby will be no more than a THX-like label to stamp on a movie to say that the room was properly calibrated or something like that. It is our JOB to make sure that we mix within the same guidelines as the pre-DCP times, and it will be the exhibitors' job to make sure that theaters are properly aligned. Sadly the latter will hardly be any better than it is today.

When I mix, I mix for a properly aligned theater. My mind would go numb trying to count all the things that can (and will) go wrong in a theater and for which I need to make pre-emptive and destructive strikes at my mix.

[dr sound]

Steven,
Well said!
+1

[Kuba Pietrzak]

Not so time ago (if I remember correctly) there was an CAS initiative about mixing movies with high volume levels, "because producers want it to be loud".

So as this (I mean CAS) is one of the biggest such an organization in the industry, perhaps it would manage to make "some pressure" to standardize all of this.

Here in Europe, it would be really hard to gather all mixers and perform similar "action"...

Kuba