Master Levels for the "Loudest" Mix

[ItsDragon]

In adjusting the levels for the hottest mix obviously it should be done in mastering. Question..Would it be wrong to, in the mix, put a +L1 on the master track to get it as hot as possible then into something like TRacks for the master? Is that too much?
Also, what are the better mastering programs out there? Thanks.

G4 450 AGP
1g Mem
PT 6

[antiphase]

Doing it again...... will not allow you to make things hotter/louder. Try using the Vintage Warmer for a maximizer. I have been getting way better mixes using this tool compared to maxim, L1, or L2. Mc DSP has a good one too you might want to check out.

[where02190]

You do not want the hottest possible mix to send ot mastering, you'll leave no headroom for the mastering engineer to work with. It is best to use no inserts on the mix buss, let the mastering engineer do that.

Target for the nominal levels for your unit, -18dbfs=0dbu for the 001 and M-box, -14dbfs for the 002/002R.

[DEVIZE]

Hello all,

Well what if he doesn't have the luxury of a "mastering engineer" and would like to master on his own for free!! Thanks.

[corTools]

One quick question on this: So are you suggesting that the highest peaks should hit somewhere between -15bBfs and 0dB on the 001? In other words, if most of my level on the master fader is at
-15dBs and with some peaks exceeding -15dBs (but of course not clipping), I will be making best use of my "bits." Thanks.

[qgrm]

Antiphase is right - you can't limit twice. well you can, but it doesnt really work properly or sound good. try it and see what you get:)

my feeling is quality of the signal has so much to do perceived "loudness". if you're working with beautiful signals, every just kind o' falls into place, the mix is easier, and the mastering session as well (which is why i've stopped recording with the 001..)

B.

[where02190]

One quick question on this: So are you suggesting that the highest peaks should hit somewhere between -15bBfs and 0dB on the 001? In other words, if most of my level on the master fader is at
-15dBs and with some peaks exceeding -15dBs (but of course not clipping), I will be making best use of my "bits." Thanks.

No, your nominal (average) level should be -18dbfs, and not the position of your master fader, that should always be at 0, the signal level of the master fader, post fader(which the master fader meters are). this leaves ample dynamic headroom for transient peaks without overdriveing the mix buss.

[BinkBonk]

Antiphase is right - you can't limit twice. well you can, but it doesnt really work properly or sound good. try it and see what you get:)

Actually, I think it's fairly common to send a source through more than one limiter or compressor.

I like using the Vintage Warmer to get loud mixes. I use my PT rig mostly for making song demos. So I need to make my mixes sound as good and as loud as possible on my own (paying for a Mastering Engineer would be overkill).
So it depends on what you are going to do with your final mix... If I was going to send my stuff to a Mastering Engineer, I would not put any plugs on the mix bus.

For me, after tracking and mixing, I bounce to disk with a Ren comp on the mix bus at a 2:1 ratio with a slow attack and a high threshold, just softening the peaks and raising the level of the mix.
Then I set up a mastering session, import the bounced stereo file and run my mix through the Vintage Warmer TWICE. Once on the imported stereo track (emulated tape saturation) and again on the Master fader (limiting), adjusting to taste and tweaking the output so nothings clipping, along with a Ren EQ (if needed).
My demos are not "PRO" but I think they sound pretty good and... THEY'RE LOUD!

Give it a try!

[Giles Reaves]

I think it's uncommon to limit a master twice. You may encounter folks who like to soft compress AND hard limit, or some other combo. Running the same mix through the same gear twice is uncommon in my experience. YMMV.

I'm not against processing your 2-mix (I do it even when the project is going to be mastered), just be very careful about how much of a "hit" your sound quality is taking in order for you to get the loudness you seek. ALWAYS compare "before and after" and do it with the levels matched (so you can tell how the sound has changed, and not just how much louder it is). How important is loudness to you? For what purpose (hopefully not just because everyone else does it)?

I've had good luck with Waves L1 and L2. I know mastering guys that use the L2, so it has it's place even with the high end guys. I've also had good luck with the Master/X for punchy/loud mixes (search for an interesting thread on THAT if you care to!). I'm also happy with the vintage warmer (even though you have to dig around the back to find all the controls!). I wish it had a few more parameters, and that they were all on the front.

When you DO have the chance to use a mastering guy, send them a version without limiting, and a version without limiting and compression/EQ. Sometimes the best version to master from is the totally clean one, sometimes it's the one without limiting. Be prepared either way.
You are going to be the one to make the call on loudness. The real question is how much you're prepared to sacrifice your sound quality for loudness. Listen carefully, and find what you like. Whatever you decide to do, remember that there's always someone around here that will dissagree with your choice!
If it sounds good, than it is good. Just make SURE it sounds good.

[qgrm]

I'm with you Giles, limiting twice just does not make any logical sense for good fidelity. multiple levels of compression for sure, and of course there is a tiny bit of grey area here, but, this process generally speaking rips away the peaks, making a flat waveform. limiting twice to flatten the plateaus? (maybe for some kind o' lofi jungle or something...)

so Giles what do you do to your stereo file before it goes out for mastering?