Clipping audio tracks but not Master fader

[bennychico11]

This is probably more of a general question...but it could be specific to just my TDM setup.
Running 6.4.1 on a Mix system, Windows XP

I've noticed when bringing in music tracks that highly compressed material (volume maximized) can clip the audio track it's on, but not clip the master fader track...even if the faders are at unity. Does this have to do with the resolution of the mix bus or something else? And does this mean the audio is clipping or that there's nothing to worry about? It's not noticeable, but the peak lights sure do light up.

Thanks

[Steve MacMillan]

I think this is because once the audio is clipped it no longer contains an over. So when the clipped audio is passed onto the mixer, it has legal full volume peaks (flattened) that were clipped at the audio track.

STeve

[bennychico11]

Thanks Steve.
But wouldn't then the Master Fader never show any clips when at unity gain? It does though, if you push the audio track's fader up above unity clipping both that track and the master bus.

[Steve MacMillan]

Thanks Steve.
But wouldn't then the Master Fader never show any clips when at unity gain? It does though, if you push the audio track's fader up above unity clipping both that track and the master bus.

Yeah, that makes sense that it does. If you have fully normalized audio (as in previously clipped audio) and unity gain on the audio track that doesn't make the unity master clip, then the slightest increase in the audio tracks level would push the full level peaks into clipping at the master (because the master was already seeing a full level signal). If you have audio that is full volume but not clipped, turning up the audio track past unity should not show a clip on that track (but you could clip sends), but it will on the master (at unity or more) that you are sending to. You can back down the master fader until the clips go away and it's just like you turned down everything being sent to it.

[blairl]

I've noticed when bringing in music tracks that highly compressed material (volume maximized) can clip the audio track it's on, but not clip the master fader track...even if the faders are at unity.

One possibility is the panning. If you have a mono track that is clipped and it is not panned hard left or hard right, then the signal showing up at a stereo Master Fader is going to be lower than full scale. If your mono track is showing red, try panning it hard left or hard right. You should see the Master Fader show red at this point.

[Cliffy_Boy]

The recorded tracks have an option for pre fader and post fader metering. If Prefader, the clips you see were recorded. If post fader, the clips are due to adding gain to those tracks from plugins such as compressors. By raising the tracks faders, you will clip the master and by pulling them down, you won't.

IOW, what you see on a prefader meter as clipped will show it as clipped since it was recorded that way. But to clip the master fader, you will need to raise the volume of track.

[bennychico11]

thanks Steve, that makes more sense. So in other words the original audio file IS clipped. I guess this is just the woes when dealing with the loudness war.

blaril, thanks for your response. I would understand if it was a mono track but I'm working with a stereo track, so they're already panned hard L and hard R.

Thanks guys.

[Hive Guy]

thanks Steve, that makes more sense. So in other words the original audio file IS clipped. I guess this is just the woes when dealing with the loudness war.

This may not be the case -- I have actually run across the exact same issue on my Mix system (PT 6.4.1 / OS 10.3.4).

Like you, I have wondered why full scale audio shows as clipping on the channel it is imported to. This occurs with files that I know are not clipped, but are full scale (including commercial recordings and samples that I have made myself which do not show as clipping on a Digi 001 or in any other software -- I also use Nuendo and Logic on other rigs).

I suspect this is a bug.

Tim

[Steve MacMillan]

OK, I ran a little test.

If I have a click on an audio track that is not clipped or showing a red over, and I Normalize it 100%, then I get a red clip indication on that track and I get a red on a mono master (@ unity) when I send to it at unity. So both the track and the master show a red clip light even though I should have no real clips, just legal full level audio.

If I send the Normalized audio from it's mono track panned center to a stereo master, then the stereo master does not clip and reports a peak input level of -2.5. If I pan the audio track full left, then the stereo master shows a red indicator on the left channel and the peak input level is 0. Drop the audio tracks fader or the master fader the slightest amount and the red indicator goes away.

STeve