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  #11  
Old 04-01-2012, 06:58 AM
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Stig Eliassen Stig Eliassen is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

I'm not on 10 yet, but I'm monitoring the ongoing development of 10 HDX pretty closely. I've demoed 10, and I loved it, but I didn't once think about float vs fixed, and how that potentially could be better or worse. It may very well be that I'm ignorant, but that's not a selling point for me.

Clip gain, AS handles, the CS plugin, disk cache and real-time fades - those are the improvements that appeal to me. The general zippyness of PT 10 also made it better to work with for me.

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  #12  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:27 AM
Greg Malcangi Greg Malcangi is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyduck View Post
The mixer plug-in is in fact 48 bit throughout, with a 56 bit accumulator.
True, providing you don't use any inserts, any sends or any sub busses and providing your whole mix fits onto 1 DSP chip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyduck View Post
Nobody stated that the entire data path was 48 bit. It doesn't have to be. Moreover, the audio will have to be handed off as 24 bit fixed to the interface in any event.
Why doesn't it have to be? Everytime the audio goes into and out of an insert, a send or to a sub buss the 48bits gets truncated (or in some cases dithered) to 24bits. Are you really saying that a large number of truncation or dither artefacts are never going to cause an audible degradation of the signal quality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyduck View Post
It has been shown definitively that 48 bit fixed beats 32 bit float.
"Definitively", really? Show us the proof then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyduck View Post
I don't have my facts mixed up. I know 32 bit float is old technology. That makes my point. It is known to be problematic.
So why did you start by saying: "I see and hear a lot of spin, from Avid, and from others, about how the "new 32 bit floating point" mixer is an improvement."?

Is 32bit FP problematic? Yes but so is the TDM mixer. The reality is more complex than simply saying the TDM mixer is better than the 32bit float mixer. There are plenty of other threads on this subject for you to educate yourself but you appear to have started this thread for an argument rather than for sharing or learning.

G
  #13  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:33 AM
mightyduck mightyduck is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

Yeah, they're implementing some software features that are new to pro tools, and many of those have been available in other platforms for some time. They have to stay "with it".

But they always do that. I think the real, big improvement is going to happen when they get all that going in 64 bit. That would seem to me to be the time to buy in. Let them get the new features worked in and all that de-bugged in the "transition version".

Otherwise, hey, its avid, you can be the first one on your block, and they'll be glad to sell it to you twice. : ) You can even have a "special hardware upgrade trade-in deal". : )
  #14  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:43 AM
dubpimpjuice dubpimpjuice is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

"Not to be a downer or anything, but I see and hear a lot of spin, from Avid, and from others, about how the "new 32 bit floating point" mixer is an improvement."

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, sir (or madam).
Go troll gearslutz with this flame bait...
  #15  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:45 AM
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

I personally don't give a rat's ***** about 48 vs 32.
All I know is I got 10 when I bought a new system, it sounds great, and there are other features that make it worthwhile to me as well.
11 will be better, I'm sure.
But 10 is what we have, and it is what it is.
I do love the didactics of the post though.
Being talked down to by a know-it-all is my favorite Sunday morning activity.
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  #16  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:54 AM
mightyduck mightyduck is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi View Post
True, providing you don't use any inserts, any sends or any sub busses and providing your whole mix fits onto 1 DSP chip.
You're trying to redefine the argument. The fact is that the 48 bit mixer plugin, the entire mixer, is 48 bit fixed. The other parts of the data path you mentioned are not part of the double precision plugin. Do you understand that?

Quote:
Why doesn't it have to be? Everytime the audio goes into and out of an insert, a send or to a sub buss the 48bits gets truncated (or in some cases dithered) to 24bits. Are you really saying that a large number of truncation or dither artefacts are never going to cause an audible degradation of the signal quality?
It gets dithered with the dithered mixer. Dither is not an "artifact". It prevents artifacts. Even truncation at that level is trivial, and, unless your analog noise floor is below -110dBfs or so, inaudible.

What you don't realize, perhaps, is that 32 bit float also has only 24 bits of precision, and it cannot be dithered. So you are stuck with truncation or rounding, and each time the significand changes you throw more quantization error into the calculation. The quantization error in floating point is not limited to the lsb area, it gets written into the file at much higher amplitudes also, and dither is neither practical nor effective there.

Quote:
"Definitively", really? Show us the proof then.
Look up Andy Moorer's paper on the subject, for starters, if you like. Andy Moorer, who was with Sonic Solutions at the time. Maybe, I'll post some other stuff later, but this is not really controversial, although you seem to want it to be. You could also research some of James Johnston's work if you want to corroborate Moorer's statement.


Quote:
So why did you start by saying: "I see and hear a lot of spin, from Avid, and from others, about how the "new 32 bit floating point" mixer is an improvement."?
Because that's what they are doing. And its b.s. They did what they did in order to keep compatibility with RTAS in the interim. Otherwise they would have had a mutiny.

Quote:

Is 32bit FP problematic? Yes but so is the TDM mixer. The reality is more complex than simply saying the TDM mixer is better than the 32bit float mixer. There are plenty of other threads on this subject for you to educate yourself but you appear to have started this thread for an argument rather than for sharing or learning.
No, Its that simple. The TDM mixer is better than 32 bit float, under any reasonable analysis. There is no rational argument to the contrary. If you can't accept the fact that 32 bit float is widely used in audio software for programming ease, then you are simply being naive.


Let me guess. You bought a brand new P.T. 10 system, right? : )
  #17  
Old 04-01-2012, 08:00 AM
formfunction formfunction is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

OMG, he is back. For anyone taking the bait, do yourselves a favor and look back at old posts from the great MD-baiter.
I am going to sit on the sidelines and watch the debacle unfold. ff
  #18  
Old 04-01-2012, 08:01 AM
mightyduck mightyduck is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejwells View Post
I personally don't give a rat's ***** about 48 vs 32.
All I know is I got 10 when I bought a new system, it sounds great, and there are other features that make it worthwhile to me as well.
11 will be better, I'm sure.
But 10 is what we have, and it is what it is.
I do love the didactics of the post though.
Being talked down to by a know-it-all is my favorite Sunday morning activity.
Nice try.

I always find it amusing when someone who is willing to spend thousands of dollars on a software audio editor says that they don't give a rat's ass about the audio path, as if that were just a minor detail. I guess as long as you get some free plugins it all sounds good to you, huh?

But anyhow, if you were buying pro tools for the first time, then you probably just bought the current version without a second thought. I guess you could have saved some money by buying a used TDM rig, but for upgrade purposes into the real 64 bit version, you may have been better off doing just what you did.
  #19  
Old 04-01-2012, 08:01 AM
corp corp is offline
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Lightbulb Re: new pro tools is not as good

Many in my area are still on the fence about upgrading to HD10 because of not being 64bit and limited "plug ins" available... I also believe there's a lot spin going around....
  #20  
Old 04-01-2012, 08:11 AM
mightyduck mightyduck is offline
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Default Re: new pro tools is not as good

Quote:
Originally Posted by corp View Post
Many in my area are still on the fence about upgrading to HD10 because of not being 64bit and limited "plug ins" available... I also believe there's a lot spin going around....
Its definitely a transitional release. They almost come right out and say it.

Not saying that you can't make a record with it, btw. I just think they are in marketing overdrive, and they are asking for a lot of money, considering....
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