Pro Mastering or Mastering your own mixes?

[c.evans]

Merry Christmas All!!

I have been mixing in ProTools for many years and have had my mixes professionally mastered and have mastered many of the myself. Sometimes it is really great to hear a fresh, new perspective on my mixes from a Pro, however, I occasionally don't feel like the mastering engineer has lent $1,500 worth of help to a project.

I was wondering what you guys and gals think about the pros and cons of paying the big bucks for high-end mastering. Also let me make clear that I have been very happy with some pro mastering in the past. It just seems that lately I feel that I get very close to the same or better results on my own system. Maybe I need to try some different mastering houses.

Give me your opinions please.

Thanks, Chad

[stereo type]

One of the pitfalls in recording (and especially mastering) is the attitude that if someone does very little, they haven't "earned their money". If a guitarist comes in and knocks out a great solo that you love in one take, do you make him do 5 more just to get your money's worth out of him?

If you're going to a mastering house and engineer that you know and trust, either by reputation or by familiarity and he does very little, take that as a compliment to your mix. In mastering, you're not only paying for the work; you're paying for the opinion. Not always, but generally speaking, if it takes a lot of work in mastering to achieve the final sound, something is probably being corrected about your mix. A small bit of compression or eq and very little time spent on the song means you did good on the mix.

There are different things like budget, time, material, is it a demo, major label, voice-over, etc. that come into play. Sometimes you just have to decide who's opinion is best for the given project ; your mix, your mastering, probably all done in the same room will suffice. Or a mastering specialist as another set of ears, another room, specific tools, etc. would be a safer option.

Heck............if in doubt, just pay a pro ME for an hours time to listen. Many ME's will gladly do a consultation; some will even take 1 or 2 tracks out of a whole project and play with them for an hour, then let you decide whether to book more time or skip it. I do this for clients and especially potential clients all the time. In fact, many times I listen to both the mix AND the clients own mastering. And sure........there have been a few times when I couldn't achieve anything better than the client already had.

[spicyitaliano]

Hey Chad. I've got some new, fresh opinions for you!

I myself am in the near future of buying some mastering software, most likely T-Racks. I've been mixing in Pro Tools for a while now, and I really enjoy it. I really don't have a preference of mixing between digital or analog. I can adapt to either.

I have had my mixes mastered by professionals in the field for the last year. Most of them I liked, but some I didn't. Often however, it's my own mixes that I'm not always happy with. Recently, I got to try out the T-Racks plugin and really enjoyed it. (But you have to use that thing sparingy or else you'll be pulling some crazy [bleep] out of your music!) Anyway, it's really cutting on the mastering costs.

But there is one thing that I have noticed that helps me more than anything. I have recently had several mixing engineers, everyday listeners, even the parents, sat in on the final mixing session. We could narrow down things that everyone agreed on to make the best mix possible. Then, I just tweaked to personal taste.

This is something that I typically do with the artist or group before we finalize everything for mastering. But having another mixing engineer by your side listening through everything really has helped me in making smart decisions about the mix. And if you can't get that, then try a family member. Just ask them how it sounds. What would they like to hear more of. Of course, you better use your own judgement before you take theirs. Just take it as an alternate mixing option.

There's some mixing psychcology for you.

[advid]

Hi Chad,
For your reference only...
It depends on how well or satisfied you think your mixing works before go for a mastering job. We have two protools rooms along with one mastering room here. We normally back to mix when we have trouble mastering the materials - normally it's not the equipment and tech. skills that we used for the mastering jobs. We have the hi-end outboards for tracking, mixing and mastering but sometimes it just didn't reach the point our lients wanted. It's more of a taste concern on mixing and mastering works. Through listening carefully to our mix or mastered materials with our clients, we can always have the best results for both parties. But normally we found out it's on the mix part. We're lucky enough that we can have the settings back to the mix ststus while using Protools.
AD-8000, Genex GXA8, Weiss DS-1MKII, Weiss EQ-1 MKII, Weiss SFC2, Custom Tubetech CL2B, Avalon 2077EQ, EmpiricalLabs EL8S, Custom Manley Vari MU.....along with 95% plug-ins ( all plug-in for protools on the market ). The only thing is to make sure our mix is good enough to go to the mastering procedure. Otherwise, take it back to the mix phase again can always solve the problem.

[c.evans]

Stereotype,

I really like the idea of sitting in with a pro mastering engineer for one or two songs to see if we are thinking in the same direction. I have great respect for the guys who have mastered some of my recent projects I have just felt there was something missing that maybe someone else could bring to the table. Another problem is that I have not been able to be at the sessions myself. The producer went but I was too busy. Also I think that the producer had a serious case of the Ooo-Ahs. He told me when he got back and we listened to the finished product that he found it hard to be objective in such a great sounding room.

Another issue that I had with the last mastering house was that we wanted to make a small change to one song and it ended up costing $500. They were nice after the fact and gave us a break but they do not include any post mastering tweaking at all. I would imagine that if the producer is there to sign off on everything they are in the right.

I must confess that my overall problem with the final mastering wasn't the sound. The sound was very good. And I hate to even say this in public because I really do love the dynamics of music, but the overall final wasn't loud enough when compared to other albums. When we called the guy and asked him about it he got a little bit defensive and said that if he were to make it louder it would have had an adverse affect on the drums in the mix. He said that because of the snare level it would have caused the limiter to kick in too much and this would disturb the overall vibe of the mix.

Now I am not going to disagree with him on this point but when a client references his/her project to major label stuff and they have just paid $1500 for mastering from a mastering house that works on these big label albums, then by golly your record had better be just as loud.

I know that loudness in mastering has gotten out of hand but I am not a big fish in the pond who is going to be a trend setter by having all of my records mastered softer with more dynamic range. I need every bit of edge that I can get to compete with the big dogs. And the big dogs mixes not only sound great but the mastering is louder than GOD!!! I can't believe the volume that some of these guys are able to achieve. Now, I don't recomend the super volumes for all types of music but this was driving rock and roll and dance stuff. It needs to be slammin.

Anyway thanks for the opinions and any more would be welcome.

Chad

[c.evans]

Also Spicyitaliano

thanks for the advice. I actually own the T-racks stuff and it is pretty cool. I do some budget mastering at my home studio and I use it often for the more agressive stuff. It can add a nice edge to the final sound when needed. I have found that lots of people really don't like the sound of the plugs though. It definitley has a "sound" to it but I think that it works well when applied to the right source material.

Thanks, Chad

[audiaudio]

I need every bit of edge that I can get to compete with the big dogs. And the big dogs mixes not only sound great but the mastering is louder than GOD!!! I can't believe the volume that some of these guys are able to achieve. Now, I don't recomend the super volumes for all types of music but this was driving rock and roll and dance stuff. It needs to be slammin.

Exactly right. We all have to compete, even the "Big Dogs." As long as louder is perceived as better, we'll find a way to make it louder.

But loudness and level (volume) are two different things. For example, two mixes can be recorded at exactly the same level, but one will sound louder. It's about the structure of the mix. This is where the big mixing guys really shine.

In my experience, punchy and loud happen more in mixing than mastering. Don't assume that the difference you're hearing between your work and the big guys' is in the mastering. I'll bet five bucks it's the mixes. Sometimes the mastering will help you get there--sometimes not.

Another issue: some mastering engineers resist making it hotter, which puts them in conflict with what competitive producers, artists and also music buyers want (in rock, pop, rap and R&B).

Mastering engineers have to compete, too. If I decide not to master it myself, I'll find a mastering engineer who looks at loudness and level the same way I do.

[c.evans]

audiaudio,

I definitley agree with you that most of the perceived loudness of a mix happens at the mixing stage and there is no doubt that the great mixers out there know how to take full advantage of this. My problem with some of the latest mastering is that the levels are actually lower. You can rip them into ProTools from the mastered disc and the meter shows the overall level down like -2db for most of the song. I can take the same unmastered version of the song, run it through a few of my plugins and it is considerabley louder than the mix from the mastering house. This is what disturbes me. And to clarify I am not smashing the crap out of the mixes. I am just pushing the limiter a little harder and using up the digital level spectrum up to -.2 just below digital zero.

I must admit however that even at the loudest possible volume my mixes still fall slightly short of the big record sound that we all want to achieve. But when you a/b between the two mixes (Mine and big record mix) and the volume is the same I feel that I level the playing field a little bit more. Of course I want to be a better mixer, we all do. I work very hard at trying to achieve killer mixes every time I step behind the console, like most of you in this forum. I think I just need to find a mastering guy that better suits the way I work. The guys that I have used are great engineers and they do some great work, I just think that there is someone better out there for my mixes.

I am also open to suggestions of great, affordable mastering houses. If any of you know someone who would be willing to take one or two mixes and give it a test run I would love to try that.

Thanks for the input!

Chad

[PT2GO]

Chad, we work in some of the same circles, and I'd definitely recommend John Mayfield (Mayfield Mastering) here in Nashville (Berry Hill actually). www.MayfieldMastering.com

Very musical guy and understands the importance of everything you're mentioning. He's still priced more for the indies, even though he's now getting some big work (Sara Evans, Martina McBride,Susan Ashton). He gets anything that I do now, no matter the style of music.

I can't say enough about how down to earth and commited to service he is. A great guy.

[brokemusician]

Iv'e got quite a bit to say on this subject, and the name is Stephen Marcusen. You won't be able to touch his work. I had a record mastered by this guy and once I got it back I tried mastering it in Protools to test my abilities vs. his and no matter what I tied L1, L2, Manley vari-mu etc.. I could not come close. I live in Michigan and every studio in town is a so called mastering studio. Yea right, wait till you get your mixes back, you might as well flush your money down the toilet, or you would be better off not even mastering your stuff with 95% of these mastering houses, they will simply make your mixes sound worse! This guy on the other hand will get them up to date in terms of loudness(although I could give 2 [bleep] about that, turn up the volume on your damn car radio) but will also make them sound better than what you sent in. The guy has mastered every big name artist you could think of I think John Lennon, Phill Collins etc.. He charges, I think it was $5000.00 for 10 songs. But you can not go wrong, and if your able to somehow sit in with this guy please post your observations here.