SX vs. PTLE

[Last]

Hi Mark.Good response.Youse point is well seen.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
One cannot say anymore that digi is either a hardware company or a software company.They are on their own misssion.It will go well as long as they make good products,but it also leaves them very very vulnerable.Anyone who has studied the design and layout of their offices will have noticed the hidden machinegun positions and sniper hideouts,not to mention the plasteel glass and reinforced bunker positions. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] This is because they KNOW that when the revolution comes....

[Jayman#9]

K, these are the reasons I like using Protools for some things and Nuendo/SX for others. It may be hard to explain some things so bare with me.

Like I said before, It's Protools for tracking and editing. In the tracking stage I use lots of Aux's. If I'm looking for a specific sound and I don't have the proper outboard gear, I'll throw up a AUX channel and select a mic input. Then I'll choose a RTAS plugin such as the Bombfadtory stuff so I can tweek the live input in realtime. Then I'll select the AUX output as Bus 1 (or whatevers availible} so I can set up an Audio track with the input set to Bus 1 (or what ever bus you pick). Make sure you hardware buffer size is set to 128 or 256 (low latency don't work in this case). The reason I do this is because it sames time rendering everthing after you record and saves you DSP (because the sound is printed to the harddrive). Also if you want to record a second or third track with the same sound, just use the same AUX channel for the first track and route it to a new audiotrack and select the same Bus input as the first track. This works really good for guitar tracking. Use Amplitube (very smoking program) or Sansamp in realtime to record straight to the track. When you're finished delete the Aux track. I hope that makes sence because it's easy and saves time and DSP.

Editing in Protools is unreal. It's hard to explain because it's a feel thing. I do S***loads of editing so trust me on this one. I've had to use, at one time or another, Logic Audio, Nuendo and Protools. So I know how they all work. In Protools there is much less mouse movement so 1 factor is speed up there. PT's is all about the shortcuts. For instance when editing drums, the TAB key comes in very handy. When you hit the TAB key, the cursor will automaticly detect the next drum hit. If you're into grid editing, then it's easy to fly though the song.

Autotuning is AEWSOME in protools. Unfortunately for us in PC land, Autotune 3 is Mac only (not for long) so I'm talking from Mac experience here but when Autotuning in PT, everything is in realtime so you can here your tuning with the music. In Logic Audio and Nuendo/SX, Autotuning is in isolation so sometimes you don't know if you're tuning the right note or not. To tune in Protools is easy but very different than other programs. Insert Autotune on the vocal track that you want to tune. create another audiotrack and name it vocal tuned (or whatever). Select the untuned vocal track's output to an availible bus number. Select the new audio track's input to the bus number you picked. Record enable the new audio track. In your Protools menu select Operations/Input Only Monitor. Now select a region that you want to tune. Use autotune (different story there). Then when finished press record (the shortcut is "3" on your number pad). Done. There is lots of small things I can't think of right now.

Now Nuendo/SX. This is much easier to explain. Personally I think Nuendo sounds much better than Protools for mixing (many would disagree I'm sure). The plugin count on Nuendo/SX is unreal (blows PT out of the water here). Way better Plugin support. Every track has EQ standard so if your running out of DSP, you have EQ's on each track for sure. NO TRACK LIMIT. I quite regularly run 50 - 70 tracks in Nuendo/SX. It's nice to look at. PT is a bit of an eyesore after awhile (even though PT's ugly interface is why the editing runs so sooth). And best of all, it's nice to have a clean slate for mixing. Nuendo/SX is a totally different enviroment. It feels different so everything is fresh. I'll admit the automation works well in Nuendo/SX but PT takes the crown there.

If you have any questions, I'd be glad to let you know.

PS: sorry about all the grammer/splelling mistakes (if any. I didn't check). [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[scardanelli]

I cut my computer music teeth on Steinberg's Pro 16 on a Commodore C64, went on to the Atari and Pro 24, then Cubase. Then to VST on a PC. Right up until about 3.7, I guess you could say I was what they called a "power user". There isn't much I don't know about those versions of Cubase.

However, two years ago give or take, I migrated to Logic Audio PC, and Pro Tools/Digi 001.

I was happy. The change of environment and software did me good. I needed to be challenged to think differently about the way I created music on a computer. Then, when I reached that plane where doing most of the day to day tasks becomes second nature, and like many people on this forum, I started asking questions.

Why only one lightpipe in?
Why no soft samplers, synths?
Why no continued support for their own legacy but trmendous products like Sample Cell? Did no-one at Digi realise the importance of samplers in todays record creating market? Have they never seen the sales figures for Akai? For EMU? Have they not seen the huge sales of sample CD-roms?
Why why why, and always an "in development" response.

Sadly though, other companies have come out of nowhere. RME for one. And created stunning affordable hardware, to run with - you choose - affordable and very advanced software.

And here's the rub. I have had a copy of Cubase SX for a few days now. And it feels like I've come home. The reasons I left VST (poor automation, garish coloured windows, etc etc) have been addressed.

SX has run flawlessly for 9 hours today. I've recorded acoustic guitars, written complex midi parts, automated VST plug-ins, VST instruments - all without looking at the manual, since I don't have one (this being an upgrade from version 5 you only get the basic starter manual).

I've even re-written several banks of automation/controller data for my old but highly effective Penny & Giles MM16 automation controller. SX "learned" the controller numbers in a trice, and it was easy to re-allocate those I didn't know.

I now have all volume, pan, mute, solo, record enable, sends 1,2,3 & 4 as well as the standard transport controls all operated from the MM16. This in 3 hours. Oh, and SX even allows me to operate windows commands like zooms, screen-sets etc. I needn't go on, it should be obvious that I am very very impressed with SX.

So where does that leave PTLE/001?

Well, here's the salt to rub into the Digi wound.

I have been unable, since upgrading to Win XP, to get my MOTU 828 to output on lightpipe in XP. Whenever the ADATs are enabled in the MOTU box the signal breaks up. Meaning I've had to have a dual boot 98/XP set-up to use Logic with my Swissonic converters.

I've spoken to MOTU, and e mailed them, and NO-ONE has been able to solve the riddle. Now it may be a combination of my particular hardware: Asus A7V266e, AMD 1800+, Matrox 450 dual-head..BUT..I am unhappy to report that I have now solved this riddle.

Unhappy because the problem is PRO TOOLS software. I ended up buying another hard-drive to install a fresh XP since I couldn't use the adat outs of the firewire with SX either. And, to my horror, everyting worked fine until I installed Pro Tools. yes, I've checked and double checked, PT software is the problem. I have the 001 card in this new install of XP, but not the software. The MOTU runs flawlessly. And that's the way it's going to stay.

Meaning that I now have my C drive in a removable caddy. When I want PT I have to swap drives. Not such a big deal but, considering how fast things are moving with SX, I wonder how long it'll be until I just won't bother with PT? Oh sure they are very different animals. And tracking in PT is a joy, so is mixing. But that's about it. For creating from scratch I like to have an arsenal at my disposal. Synths, samplers etc.

Anyway I love Pro Tools, I just think that somehow over the years the management at Digi have lost sight of the market place. It may be too little too late. I've heard now of two major Music departments at UK universities that are dropping "dodgydesign" (their word not mine) and moving to Logic if they're mac, SX for PC.

I think the main argument for me not selling the 001 (apart from the fact that it wouldn't fetch enough to make it worthwhile) is for pro-studio compatibility. If I want to mix somewhere, or track some drums in a nice room etc. But I reckon I'll do most of the creating in SX, and bounce a stereo master to track to in other studios. We shall see.

OK that was a very long post, I think the longest I've ever posted. But as someone who grew up with Steinberg and then deserted I feel particularly qualified to join this thread. SX really is a major piece of kit.

Oh, I didn't mention Logic - well as much as I loved it, once the thought of no support on my platform loomed - out. I'm not prepared to work in outdated software. It'll be subsumed into Apple's closed shop. And as anyone who remembers the 70's and 80's union struggles in the UK will know - a closed shop usually ends up closing the shop.

Simon

[APAULOS]

That post was HUGE baby...but this is great, just the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks Simon and Jay, I appreciate you taking so much of time. I'm listening.

[audio junkie]

I prob couldn't have said it better myself, You said everthing that was on my mind.

Hears what I'm really curious about.

Most say that Nuendo\SX sounds better, well I'm in the middle of remixing a song in Nuendo that I mixed earlier in PT (it was tracked in PT as well) and I'll let you know what I think. I'm not really diggin there somewhat clumsy mixer GUI. And edit is not as cool...especially since there's no Smart Tool....Strip silence window isn't as easy to use. No elegant Sound Replacer substitute. Though there are a few really cool things in the Nuendo GUI that Pro Tools falls short on.

But as far as everthing else goes, its Smokes PT. So to me I can't let go of PT cause it so easy and powerful.

So, what do you guys think would be the best way to implement the two programs as far as tracking\mixing. Where does most of that "Pro Tools Sound" come from? Tracking or Mixing?

[Jayman#9]

scardanelli, it's good to see a different point of view. Though we are on similar lines. You're right about creating music. If your a songwriter, you're probably better off with just using Logic or Nuendo/SX. If you're into engineering as well, then it's very worth it to keep Protools as well. PT tends to be too techy when you just want to write a song. Nuendo/SX is layed out for writing. PT requires manual patching for routing signal flow (like patching in a reverb or setting up to record. Nuendo/SX, though not as flexible as PT, has everything prepatched so if you want some verb, you select your verb of choice in the fx window then turn up the knob on the track you want verb on. Simple.

I'm more of a rock producer/engineer so I rely on Protools for many tasks. When I finish all my bed tracks it's off to Nuendo to add additional production such as VSTi's or sound FX. Then of coarse mixing. [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

It's good to see others on the DUC that are into expanding thier tools beyond Protools. PT is great but it's not the be all end all. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Mark_Knecht]

APAULOS,
Hi. The RME Hammerfall Lite (9636) gives you two ADAT + 1 s/pdif, and the Hammerfall gives you 3 ADAT + 1 s/pdif. I'm using the 9636 on my GSt machine and it has been really nice. Great drivers for Win ME/2K/XP and XP Pro, AND Linux! While this might not be important right now, you might get interested in Ardour one of these days and want to try it out. This is quite possible with RME.

Oh, and one more thing that's nice about Ardour - it's totally free! Everything required to do 96KHz recording (other than hardware) is free under GPL.

The RME DigiFace has 3 ADAT, plus you can hook multiple units to a single PCI card in your PC. The RME forums talk about people using at least two and possibly 3 of these puppies.

Cheers,
Mark

[quote]Originally posted by APAULOS:

Couldn't agree more. In fact that's one of the main reasons I'm going to leave PTLE. I need multiple lightpipe or AES/EBU ins and outs so that I can use external A/D converters and clocks.

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[Okion]

Originally posted by Jayman#9:
scardanelli, it's good to see a different point of view. Though we are on similar lines. You're right about creating music. If your a songwriter, you're probably better off with just using Logic or Nuendo/SX. If you're into engineering as well, then it's very worth it to keep Protools as well.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The earlier discussion on aux tracks is doable in SX but it is a bit more work. But the unlimited offline undo in SX is a godsend.

With PTLE it is much easier to just plug in and play, at the cost of a lot of power to tweak the performance. If I am recording midi then I don’t worry that I have one good take except for a missed note. I can fix that. In fact If I keep hitting the wrong string on a certain part I can just turn that string off. Then go back and play the part over with just that string recording.

Analog guitar can then be added on top without much worry for me, cuzz it’s easier to play along than to just play. Not only that, but I have the score to read as I play.

If you are recording other people then you don’t need these things really. And the way SX works may bother you. VST was such a dog that, at the time, I chose PTLE so I could _just record_ without all the hassle. There were things I wanted to do, but just couldn’t. I started saying I wish I wish I wish. It turned out that SX did all of that and more.

Now that I am learning SX well I don’t miss anything from PTLE....yet....

You have to figure what you want to do and make your decision on that. If you record audio all the time and don’t want to use soft synths and are happy with waves (the best IMO) then go with PTLE.

The interface may be clunky, but it doesn’t get in your way. If you want to see one track close up you will have to hide all the others, for instance.

Otherwise if you want compatibility and 96kHz and serious MIDI, SX is your app.

The interface may be sweet, but it can also get in your way. If you want to edit a midi track visually just beside an audio you have to click and arrange the windows a bit. But you can view all of a midi part (not just 2 features) at once.

I kept both for more than a month becouse it took me that long to learn how to record the way I wanted in SX. Once I had...well..

[Voideco]

Recently sold my 001 to return to Cubase (still VST 5.0, release 6 with Rewire 2). I'm saving money to buy a Layla.

Cubase has no Bounce to Disk option, but Vonbleak mentioned what seems to be a solution (just don't know what an Apogee VU22 is).
My idea to workaround is the following setup:
A Layla or Delta 1010 or so to bring your tracks together on an Adat optical or S/PDIF output, stereo. Cubase controls this card. A second soundcard (i.e. a Terratec, as long as it has a digital input to receive the Layla's mix) to record the mixed signal. You'd need a prog like Wavelab or Soundforge for the second soundcard to record the mix. Haven't tried it yet, and I don't know if the two progs work together, but isn't this the same as Vonbleaks solution?

Further, Cubase has very advanced midi-editing facilities that Pro Tools can't touch. But only in Pro Tools you can cut of one sample (1/48.000 sec.) from an audio take. Cubase VST (don't know about SX, but alas) doesn't allow to edit such small regions, it would give a message that the slice you try to cut is too small.

My personal opinion futhermore is that Cubase is a little too Window-ish. It's not really necessary to cut and paste track names, for instance. Not such a big deal, but compared to PTLE I think Cubase has too many bells and whistles that put an unnecessary load on the CPU or the PCI-bridge. Like also very fancy looking mix windows. PTLE is way more economic in it's use of resources.

[Dreamware]

In my opinion functionality is more important over style. However, if you can spruce up the application interface and remain functional, than that is icing on an already sweet cake.