Stems equal Final Mix or may be not ..... ?

[FluffyPost]

thanks for the feed back guys

so is it agreed that:

1. when playing back final PRINTED stems @ unity gain to reassemble and reprint the program - combined these DME stems WILL peak over -10dbfs and limiters again must be applied

i always thought this was a myth or i was doing something wrong therefore my stems combined would peak if recombined

2. limiters can be optionally placed on sub masters and stems masters as required or desired

3. what settings are people using on their stem limiters to achieve a combined program peak level of -10dbfs (this is where my gain structure knowledge fails me)

[Henchman]

First, I have to say "No" to question one.
If done correctly, the reassembled stems would not peak over - 10.


As far as setting up my limiters, I tend to set the stems to 1db below the maximum if the spec.
But I also don't use my limiters to "mix" for me either.
They are simply there as a precaution.
If there's a case where its over on the full mix, I will tackle it however needed.
But not on the Master buss .

[jimlongo]

I must respectfully disagree with some of this.

First off, why would anyone recombine all of my stems to recreate my mix - they already have my mix.

Secondly I respect the mixer of the foreign version just enough to assume that they can mix their master to proper levels for their broadcaster.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but this has never been kicked back by Q.C.

[MIKEROPHONICS]

Good point Jim

I just had to mix Eleventh Hour in Italian and was only presented with a mixed M&E - dang do I wish I had the chance of a split M&E.
There is often a tendency to get the levels of ATMOS and foley bonkers high compared to music in the absence of dialogue.

I wouldn't sweat the whole debate about stems matching final too much, there is no absolute mix - and every derivative will want different things.

Different European countries like their language version mixed in very different ways because of historical styles

my 2p worth

[Henchman]

There are various reasons why stems would be needed, and that they should equal the final mix.
One example is "dirty word" versioning.
Having done a lot of docs and reality tv where the spec was stated that stems combined MUST equal the final mix, I am used to working that way.

And at the end if the day It's not my mix. It's the clients, and IMO, It's my job to ensure that stems combined = final mix.
I don't care what they do with the stems once my job is done.
It's none if my business.

This sense if paranoia about what a client is going to go with them is a bit much.

[MIKEROPHONICS]

"dirty word versioning" not such a big issue on UK tv - which is more "permissive" than in the US

We tend to reverse things and or use tone rather than the inflight concept of "you funked my wife" - I seem to remember a hilarious post on the duc about this before

Surely you would create a sanitized full mix for this? and then its own sanitized stem.

My philosophy is this: Stems = Deliverables = Money for me

I agree about the paranoia. I work relatively similar to you and in 25 years have NEVER had a tech failure or a stem rejected.

I regularly have to reversion US programmes for AETN UK's audiences, and I have to say I am sadly often shocked at how often the stems are woefully inadequate and missing stuff due to missed bussing, or is a dipped stem. The crunching of dial dynamic range is often savage to say the least. But some of the stuff is beautiful however i.e WW2 Lost Films.

Sorry - not trying to States bash, but more that the point is stems almost always end up in the hands of someone who knows what they should be and how to deal with them. So the obsession about matching the Final is the least of the troubles really (speaking from the coal face).

I NEVER however let a client have a session - but that is another story...

have a nice weekend all

[FluffyPost]

i'm with you henchman .... i believe that stems "should" equal final mix and i want to understand HOW to do it and why it's seems that it's not practiced as a standard?

i believe that down the track - this practice will save questioning and that the mix will ultimately be replicated transparently and most importantly as intended from original design when it leaves studio A ... to be reversioned in studio B - WITHOUT further processing

so how how do you do it?

[Henchman]

I stated before if there's an over on the full mix, I adjust either the individual track, or the offending stem.
On the stem it can be controlled by adjusting the limiter on that specific stem.

[SpaceCommand]

Just to muddy up the waters a bit. I have seen discovery delivery specs with a full mix peak limit of -10dBFS and stem elements at less or equal to
-3dBFS.

Apparently they don't mind.... and I'm just saying.....If they don't mind.....

Personally I would like to deliver my stems with a bit more dynamics than what was needed for broadcast peak limitimg. Like say -10 vs -8. I guess we need to ask ourselves here, What kind of repurposing are the stems for?

Mark, I've seen that spec too.
"Having done a lot of docs and reality tv where the spec was stated that stems combined MUST equal the final mix"
I'm not so sure they are talking about peaks here, but maybe.

I don't know what the right answer is here. Do we LOCK in our peaks for the broadcaster. Or do we give our clients the option for better dynamics. I guess ultimately it's up to them eh?. Can't wait to explain this to them. They barley understand most of the Audio technicalities as it is.

My 2 dB's
Conner

[Henchman]

I prefer to play it safe. One never knows when some QC petting decides to check the stems, and kick it back. Making me look incompetent.