Video Timecode Issue, confirm I've crewed :)

[8dB.co.uk]

Have a look at my PTE article - it might help. http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home...ro-cc-and.html

[8dB.co.uk]

I recently had to mix and deliver a film that was shot at 25, in 24fps reels for DCP, 23.98fps continuous for US DVD and 25fps continuous for PAL DVD. It's all do-able but takes some time.

[Monty_python]

Kasper and John, thank you for the explanation and the attachment, very helpful!
8dB, thanks for the article!

It seems everyone here is on the same page which makes sense to me, I still can’t get the workflow down.

To confirm, I imported my 23.976 video into a 23.976 session, and then imported my 25 video into the same session to confirm the issue. A little before 80 minutes, my 25fps video is almost 4 seconds off, shorter in the timeline. My 23.976 audio is longer. So this seems like the issue we’re all talking about.

So now I open a new 23.976 24bit/48k session and import my 23.976 video with audio reference track attached. Now Import>Session Data and choose my last 25fps project file. I chose to import the reference audio track from my 25fps video as the test. Selecting SRC with the 48k>46,034 pull down option. PT is definitely doing the conversion, takes a bit to re-encode the file. Now this new audio file is longer than my 23.976 audio instead of shorter. Taking a measurement almost 80 minutes into the timeline, it is almost 3 and a half minutes longer.

Tried the same with 16bit session, same results.

So I go back to the editor to find anymore info to troubleshoot with. He’s in FCP7. I asked to get sequence settings for the sequence I got my OMFs from. It’s 16bit/48k. I ask to tell me what the source files in this sequence are. Turns out they’re recording on set @ 16bit/44.1k. So they synced by hand 44.1k files in a 48k sequence @ 25FPS. The movie was shot in 23.976 though. Not checking the framerate, I edit in Pro Tools the whole movie in 25FPS 24bit/48k. Including a ton of ADR work. After my audio work, we discover the framerate issue. In FCP7 we now copy everything from the 25fps sequence and paste into a 23.976fps sequence. A few things move on the audio end, but the video stayed in-tact. Movie looks just fine besides a re-render to new settings.

I’m not sure if the sample rate or framerate is my issue or the combination of the two. I’m going to keep testing with SRC in the meantime, or try to find where I’ve made a user error in your recommended workflow, but if any of you have insight knowing these details, please share. Thanks so much for your time!

As for after this step, I do have the Waves Horizon bundle. I assume I have something to deal with the pitch in there.

[john1192]

Recap: editors working in FCP7 at 25fps / assuming 48k .. now lets see what happened along the way ..

so many questions to ask ..

Kasper - could this be an issues between 44.1 and 48k .. since OP is still getting what appears to be a speed change issue .. ???

OP - could some of the Edits that were done by Editors AFTER the 23.98 conversion be the issue ???

1) Movie originally shot at 23.98fps
2) Audio originally captured at 16/44.1k
3) Editors Convert/Edit 23.98fps video into 25fps FCP7 Timeline - at this Point they should have Known it was in 23.98 - FCP7 does not automatically convert Video .. then they realize after the Fact and before they FINISH they were at the wrong Frame Rate .. !!!
4) Editors take On-Set 44/16 audio and hand spot into FCP7 timeline - did they convert to 48k ?? who are these guys at this point ! haha
4) you receive video and audio from Editor - 25/48k ?? TC Window Burn ??
5) you edit in Pro Tools the whole movie in 25FPS 24bit/48k then the Editors Re-Conform back to 23.98 ??? weird right here .. all this converting ..
6) you get changes that do not match and new video that does not conform easily to new Frame Rate ..

and here we are ...

did i miss anything ??? eel, i missed something - a Solution

if you Post this at GS post production forum joe milner might chime in .. brilliant at this stuff .. you could even find hi there and PM him .. but before you do make a List / Timeline of how things happened ... mine above does not reflect anything but what we know here so far ..

will keep thinking about this ..

cheers john


remember Speed Changes Kill !!!

23.98 to 25, 29.97 to 25, big jumps - 4.1% .. need pitch correction

44.1k to 48k is also a Speed change ..

changing frame rates on a Timeline will not change speed !!

changing sample rates are instantly noticeable .. !!

[Monty_python]

Originally Posted by john1192

OP - could some of the Edits that were done by Editors AFTER the 23.98 conversion be the issue ???

3) Editors Convert/Edit 23.98fps video into 25fps FCP7 Timeline - at this Point they should have Known it was in 23.98 - FCP7 does not automatically convert Video .. then they realize after the Fact and before they FINISH they were at the wrong Frame Rate .. !!!
4) Editors take On-Set 44/16 audio and hand spot into FCP7 timeline - did they convert to 48k ?? who are these guys at this point ! haha
4) you receive video and audio from Editor - 25/48k ??
5) you edit in Pro Tools the whole movie in 25FPS 24bit/48k then the Editors Re-Conform back to 23.98 ??? weird right here .. all this converting ..

The only edits that were done coming back to me at 23.98 was and extended intro for titles, and they cut the last scene out of the movie. So besides 2 minutes added to the front for titles, it's all the same for about 80 minutes. There were no new cuts. So I can simply go past the new intro credits and see when to start my sync. The sync drifts evenly over time.

3-5) They didn't do any converting. Simply dragging 23.98 video to a 25 timeline and dragging 44.1k audio to a 48k timeline. How FCP7 interprets it there, I have no clue. I believe my OMFs are 16bit/48k. Not sure how to confirm that. If I simply open one up in PT, PT will set the session properties as that though. No Burn Window

I think I could get the editors to go back to the original 25fps sequence to finish the movie, since few things were done and could be redone quickly. I figured to get the project back to 23.98 right away before continuing since I still have foley and background to record to, I'm not wrapped yet. Even if I get them back to 25fps so I can keep working, how do I/they wrap the project and get it back to 23.98 when all is said and done?

I don't think the 44.1k sound files have anything to do with it, but wanted to report that that's what the source files were. I think FCP handled them correctly. Only assumptions. Thanks for your reply!

[Monty_python]

So I imported with the SRC option "47,952 film to ntsc". This really makes no sense according to the details of my issues, but I'm finally synced up. Hopefully I haven't spoke too soon, I'm synced here in PT and I sent a copy to the editor who says it's good. I'm gonna spend some time in FCP to try and understand with my own eyes what the heck is happening or why this could have possibly been the solution when I get on location. Thanks for the attention, any comments/hypothesis are very welcome. What saved me at the end of the day was knowing those SRC options exist (thank you for that!) and just trying each one and watching the sync go back and forth.... blah... and luck.

[john1192]

good that you are sorted out .. i have no idea what is going on at this point !!!

editors have done things that have ended up being a nightmare for audio post and it has always been the audio guys fixing it and saving the day ..

cheers brother

john

[Kasper]

Yes, good you have it synced, hopefully

As John says, there are so many variables here, no way to know WTF is really going on!

But something just doesn't add up - if your first import was at 46 it HAS to be even shorter (faster) than 47.952, it's just simple math.

Your sample rate is not changing, it's always at 48k for playback. What is changing is what you are stamping the original files with, the lower the rate, the faster they will play back.

FCP can playback multiple sample rates at their native rate on the same timeline; it doesn't have a "master" clock like PT does.
So, the same file in their system will not necessarily play back at the same speed in you session.

I always insist on academy, 2 pops and tail pops from the editor. It's the only way to be sure of sync.
And get a window burn or make one yourself.

Best of luck,
kasper

[john1192]

Spot On Kasper ... thank you

Originally Posted by Kasper

Yes, good you have it synced, hopefully

As John says, there are so many variables here, no way to know WTF is really going on!

But something just doesn't add up - if your first import was at 46 it HAS to be even shorter (faster) than 47.952, it's just simple math.

Your sample rate is not changing, it's always at 48k for playback. What is changing is what you are stamping the original files with, the lower the rate, the faster they will play back.

FCP can playback multiple sample rates at their native rate on the same timeline; it doesn't have a "master" clock like PT does.
So, the same file in their system will not necessarily play back at the same speed in you session.

I always insist on academy, 2 pops and tail pops from the editor. It's the only way to be sure of sync.
And get a window burn or make one yourself.

Best of luck,
kasper

[Monty_python]

I spent the whole day with the session. So far so good. Had one file out of thousands get an error, simply re-imported it. Then what little midi I had was shifted and had to be nudged. Very grateful to continue working and for the advice and support. Cheers!