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  #1  
Old 07-05-2001, 09:52 PM
KennyD KennyD is offline
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Default Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

Related to another current thread; Question for the experienced and/or the technically astute:

Record 24 bit 48Khz straight out and get a better sound? Is it better to BTD or monitor through the main mix outs direct to CD on say, an external CDR stand alone unit, DAT, etc., and what to do about dither then, dither on the mix bus or use dither on the recording medium?

KennyD
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  #2  
Old 07-06-2001, 06:07 AM
love666 love666 is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

the 24-bit sound of protools free coming out of the mac output going into my stereo is 10X better than any BTD of it. when it hits the mac output it is 16 bits and when it hits the DAT/CDR it is analog so you don't need any dither.
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  #3  
Old 07-06-2001, 11:35 AM
Sugarite Sugarite is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

Kenny>> Word around the campfire is that bouncing through the digital outputs of the 001 to an outboard recorder renders a better sound than bouncing to disk. Why? I haven't the faintest clue. The ProTools mixer does NOT dither, so for best results keep them faders at 0dB and use plug-in gains to set levels when preparing to bounce. Best dithering is a bit of a toss-up between Waves L1+ with IDR and T-Racks. BarbaBatch is probably the best tool for dithered sample rate conversion afterwards.

love666>> Why would you use the built-in sound outputs on your mac in the first place if you've got a 001 or AMIII? And I think you've missed the point, he's asking which is a better bouncing method, not for listening afterwards.
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  #4  
Old 07-06-2001, 05:03 PM
[Benjamin] [Benjamin] is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by love666:

...
Maybe if I had a good dither plug-in. It will be interesting to see what it sounds like when Toolbox XP w/5.0 arrives next week.
...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Love 666 >>> The standard Digidesign Dither Plug-in is by far good enough, not at all bad. In fact, I'd be more wary using UV22 than Digi standard dither. Don't get me wrong, UV22 is (was) sometimes the best choice, but it's critical to know when NOT to use it, on some material it's just plain bad.

With Digi dither, you don't get this problem, because it's more transparent.
Now, finally, we've got Pow-R, which is the best publicly avaliable dither so far. But don't go thinking that Pow-R is gold for your mixes and that other dithers are poison, they all offer the same benefits, they are all good at helping you better preserve your mix.


HOWEVER, Sugarite >>> "BarbaBatch is probably the best tool for dithered sample rate conversion afterwards."

-What??!! Have you actually compared theese things?? Have you compared your sound before and after?? Barbabatch is a good tool for some things, but I would never let it near any type of bit-dept reduction. And the so-called "dither" in Barba, heck knows what that is..
I've done this in Barba several times but me and my clients have been shocked at the poor quality and obvious alterations of the spectra. This was also confirmed measuring it with sweeps and spectragrams.

A simple test, make, say, a 24 bit, -6dB sweep from 20Hz-20kHz. Dither and bit-dept reduce to 16 bits in barba. Listen to the two files.
Import the original sweep to a track in Protools, stick a dither plug on the track, like waves or digi, set it to 16 bits, now bounce the sweep. Listen to the three files.
And so on, try different apps & dithers if you want.

To be quite honest, I haven't examined the sample-rate comversion in Barba, it may be good, but I wouldn't use it without looking at it with scope and spectragram first. I know Audioease is boasting about it, but I'd still measure it first.

And so on,

Ben
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  #5  
Old 07-06-2001, 05:15 PM
CrookedSound CrookedSound is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

Yeah, but is the song any good?

[img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2001, 05:40 PM
Sugarite Sugarite is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

Ben>> Read again, best for sample rate conversions, in particular when using T-Racks to master, which does not convert sample rates, only 24- and 16-bit resolution. Has nothing to do with bit-depth either. (?) I just like BarbaBatch because it's fast, stable, and batch processes. I have noticed a marginal difference between it and SoundApp, and I've found Peak unstable at times. But really there aren't many converters to choose from and there's really not much to be lost in sample rate conversions, you'd need a spectrogram to really make any distinctions.

There's a distinct shortage of conventional terms and literacy on this thread...
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Old 07-06-2001, 06:12 PM
CrookedSound CrookedSound is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

Girls, girls...you're both pretty! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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  #8  
Old 07-06-2001, 06:18 PM
[Benjamin] [Benjamin] is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

Sugarite>>> No, you said "best for dithered sample rate conversion". Anyway, what I wanted to attack (no less [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]) was the bit-dept reduction (24-16) and the (so-called) dither of Barba. Since you mentioned dither, I made a (somewhat sharp, I admit) pointer to you to get your attention to shortcommings in Barba, and they are not subtle, I'm talking dB's..

Anyway, Sugarite, sorry for comming out with a chip on my shoulder, been touchy lately, I know.. Must've been that Why? thread.. (Second time today I use this excuse, it's getting old..)

Audioease is bragging about their sample rate conversion, and if what they say is true, sure, it probably is good. I'll try to remember to listen and compare some spectragrams on conversions next week. Or maybe someone else is up for it?
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2001, 06:24 PM
surchur surchur is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

You all have passed me but I will use that Info as I learn it like when I am looking at a wave file too know it will probably be a take or not before I hear it It is what I am aiming at!! Speaking of ears. My mixes are are reduced in gain from what I am referencing too. I am shure it has much to do with mastering but on the other hand I went ahead and mixed my song with my master clipping some and my snare track cliping some so I could retain the fat monster snare! and It did not distort! It actually sounded just like my reference Almost, But that can't be good or is hearing believeing.
Maybe I can lower all the tracks so that my whatever track I need up is up and say the master gain should not exceed (???) please fill in the blanks! Then reimport the two stereo tracks to pt and boast somemore? or I quess thats what you do in mastering anyway is it not okay to clip like that even if it sounds good!
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2001, 06:45 PM
[Benjamin] [Benjamin] is offline
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Default Re: Bounce To Disk or monitor out direct to ext. CDR?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by surchur:
Maybe I can lower all the tracks so that my whatever track I need up is up and say the master gain should not exceed (???) please fill in the blanks! Then reimport the two stereo tracks to pt and boast somemore? or I quess thats what you do in mastering anyway is it not okay to clip like that even if it sounds good!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, lower your mix 'til it doesn't clip. You don't have to do this on individual faders, you only have to bring the master fader down til the red clip indicators doesn't light up anymore. If you see clipping, you should do this before adding any plugs on your master fader, to ensure what you are delivering if fine. You don't have to bring them back in later, you can add a limiter to the master fader and bring the level up a bit there. Lower the limiter threshold 'til you see the gain reduction "leds" lighting up every once in a while, on strong passages and transients, not too muc, just one or a few leds lighting up. If you go farther than this you're in black magic land, dangerzone. Getting a mix loud takes so much, more than mastering or limiting, it's an integral process that is started much earlier and involves a lot of advanced dynamics handling. You will not be able to compete with big current commersial releases without introducing severe clipping, and you have no reason accept clipping. You're better off preserving your hard-earned sound. Remember that no world-class mastering engineer on the planet likes squashed dynamics and clipping. Why this has come to be the current trend is a long story, I wont go there..

Ben
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