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  #1  
Old 08-20-2005, 12:08 AM
Sound Guy Andy Sound Guy Andy is offline
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Default X-curve plug-in options?

Hey all. I've seen this question posed before, but I've never found an answer to it.

I realize the process of room equalization for 5.1 mixing should include more than just tacking a 3dB/octave low pass filter at 2k (may even more gradual/higher for my small room) in my monitoring chain, but it'd be a good start while I work on other things like the room's physical properties.

I'm currently doing all my speaker calibration and management in software, and I'd like to keep it that way if possible. Is there a PT EQ plug that can emulate the X-curve(s)?


Thanks,
Andre
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  #2  
Old 08-20-2005, 11:46 AM
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minister minister is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Andre,

The X-curve is a ROOM EQ, that is for larger rooms. smaller room do not need it. That being said, if you don't REALLY know what you are doing, and have all the right analysis gear, you could REALLY eff it up. I would suggests abandoning that idea and having your mixes checked on a real dubbing stage. Leave your room flat and find out what translates.
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  #3  
Old 08-20-2005, 12:55 PM
Sound Guy Andy Sound Guy Andy is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Quote:
andre,

the academy X-curve is a ROOM EQ, that is for larger rooms. smaller room do not need it. that being said, if you don't REALLY know what you are doing, and have all the right analysis gear, you could REALLY eff it up. i would suggests abandoning that idea and having your mixes checked on a real dubbing stage. leave your room flat and find out what translates.
I plan on bringing in an expert for my initial room EQ, and when the budget allows for it I'll adhere to your suggestion and check my mixes on a real dubbing stage.

In the meantime, though, are there PT EQ plugin options for applying X-curve variations (to the monitoring chain only, of course, not going to print)?


Thanks,
Andre
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  #4  
Old 08-21-2005, 10:51 AM
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dr sound dr sound is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Andy,
Stay away for "The X Curve" for now. You have too many things on your plate and are going in many directions. Slow down. How large is your room? What type of speakers and how many. What are you using for picture. Is the picture projected or is it a TV? Who would you have tune your room? I know you're eager.
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  #5  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:13 PM
Sound Guy Andy Sound Guy Andy is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

dr. sound:
Quote:
How large is your room?
It's 19Wx22Dx8H, but some oddities in its shape take back several feet from its effective W and D.

Quote:
What type of speakers and how many.
I'm using 5 KRK V4's with an S12 sub for the surround setup, but I also check tonal balance on 2 Dynaudio BM6p's with a Hafler P1500 amp and 2 Genelec 1031a's.

Quote:
What are you using for picture. Is the picture projected or is it a TV?
I display pic as a digitized QT on one of my 2 19" LCD's. They are positioned between my L,C, and R monitors, so the pic is not absolutely centered in the sound field.

Quote:
Who would you have tune your room?
I'm working with a guy who used to mix for Sony Pictures and did some room tuning, and I've heard a few names around here, but we're certainly open to suggestions.

Quote:
I know you're eager.
That I am! This is a lot of info, though, so I'll do my best to process it all without too much haste.


Thanks,
Andre
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  #6  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:22 PM
Sound Guy Andy Sound Guy Andy is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Quote:
andre,

the academy X-curve is a ROOM EQ,
Hey minister, I could be totally off on this but I think the Academy Curve and the X-Curve are two different things. From what I've read, the Academy Curve was created to compensate for deficiencies in older analog recording/playback media (which digital methods have made obsolete), whereas the X-curve was introduced to address the effects of the room and other playback environment variables.

Here's a link to one of my information sources:

http://www.sdinfo.com/volume_9_2/fea...es-6-2002.html


Andre
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  #7  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:29 PM
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dr sound dr sound is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Andy,
First your room is too small (on the height) to mix for Features. Second, your 5.1 set up choice will have a hard time translating to a "Dub Stage" or a Theatrical enviroment. Having mixed at Sony Pictures for over 7 years, who is the Mixer/room tuner? I know em all! The "Academy curve" and "X curve" are 2 different things. You don't need the Academy curve!!! You will probably need a modified "X" curve. You will need to change your speakers, get room eq's, get a monitor matrix, get at least a big screen or a projection screen. Way and decide if the tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and set up is going to get you that much Feature work in San Diego. Let us know what you decide.
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  #8  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:49 PM
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minister minister is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Quote:
Hey minister, I could be totally off on this but I think the Academy Curve and the X-Curve are two different things.
Yes, you're right, I misspoke. I know, I've read those articles. Here is another: a History of the X Curve i spoke a little loosely. I'd follow the doc's advice and not worry about this now. mix this one program as best you can. your room is small. so is mine. if you have the budget, see if you can get the stage to run your mix once while you are in process. they can give you some feedback. then, when the time comes, if you go with a 35MM printmaster on a dub stage, build in some extra time to tweak the mix based on what you hear when it palys in that room. and let the mixer who knows that room make those adjustments.
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  #9  
Old 08-21-2005, 02:05 PM
Sound Guy Andy Sound Guy Andy is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Quote:
Andy,
First your room is too small (on the height) to mix for Features.
We're looking for a more ideal space, but this one's been working well for 5.1 music mixing so far (I know that's a different ball of wax). As far as film goes, we'll likely be focusing on remixing 6-channel stems with dubbed dialog until we get into a better space, and we'll make the best of it until then.

Quote:
Second, your 5.1 set up choice will have a hard time translating to a "Dub Stage" or a Theatrical enviroment.
What are the deficiencies of my current setup? What would a more ideal setup be? Since you've read my other related post you know I'm doing calibration/bass management in software, so that's not a concern.

Quote:
Having mixed at Sony Pictures for over 7 years, who is the Mixer/room tuner? I know em all!
I'll let him step in and introduce himself if he chooses to; I've just emailed him links to these threads. I have nothing to hide, and neither does he, but I'd rather not speak for him.

Quote:
The "Academy curve" and "X curve" are 2 different things. You don't need the Academy curve!!!
I think I understand the differences between the two.

Quote:
You will probably need a modified "X" curve.
Any plugin options for this?

Quote:
You will need to change your speakers
What do you suggest?

Quote:
get room eq's
Software options? We'll go with hardware if we have to.

Quote:
get a monitor matrix
Does the Waves 360 package not cover this?

Quote:
get at least a big screen or a projection screen.
I can see that being of tremendous benefit when get into more detailed mixes (rather than dealing with pre-mixed stems), which we certainly plan to work toward.

Quote:
Way and decide if the tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and set up is going to get you that much Feature work in San Diego. Let us know what you decide.
There are certainly places we could invest time and money (in both equipment and technical/creative expertise) to raise the level of our mixing and production capabilities, and we'll be doing so as time and money permit. In the meantime, as any business owners would do, we'll be producing the best results we can for whatever clients are comfortable with our abilities and price points; so far so good!

I have tons of respect for you and people like you who have put in years of their lives to become experts at their craft, and whose facilities can offer unlimited services thanks to their top-notch design, construction, and location. I do, however, think there's a place in the industry for smaller operations like ours that can offer excellent quality at a competetive price point for clients whose production needs, location, or budget concerns don't justify a big Hollywood production house.

I also sense from some people on this forum a certain resentment toward young whippersnappers trying to break into the biz with their PT LE systems and Logitech Z-680 surround setups thinking they can mix feature films in their bedrooms; a similar phenomenom has certainly had an effect on the music production industry over the past 5 years.

To those people, let me just say this: welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism. I wouldn't want to see the best dubbing stages put out of business by home-based upstarts (and this is not likely to happen in the film industry as it did in the music industry anyway), but I respect the little guy for trying as much as the big guy for succeeding (and vise versa).

I would hope that a client wouldn't put their faith in a business that's incapable of delivering the quality their project deserves (though that's not always the case), and I would also hope that a facility owner would be willing to refer a client to a more suitable facility if theirs coudn't do the project justice; I know I would.

Nonetheless, we'll be doing everything we can to raise the quality level of our work continually higher, and pursuing ever larger and more challenging projects...and all your help and advice on this forum is a great resource for achieving that! I hope over time we're able to give back as much to this forum as we've already gotten out of it.


Andre
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  #10  
Old 08-21-2005, 02:46 PM
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Branko Branko is offline
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Default Re: X-curve plug-in options?

Just to try to explain a bit more about the room EQ...
When we say Room EQ, it actually referres to a speaker response in a reverberant field and Dolby assumes that rooms are reverberant spaces. In a reverberant field, the response of speaker is determined by many factors, e.g. reverberation time, reflections, distance from speakers (air cuts off a lot on high frequences as distance increases). Reverberation increases uniformity and generally helps in achieving larger areas in rooms where listening conditions are acceptable. The drawback of this is that reverberation destroys the imaging and masks the details (it was always difficult for me to judge the amount of reverberation I have to add to ADR or Foley when pre-mixing in a room with higher RT), so the RT is always a compromise between these two. You'll find some recommended RT tables in Dr's thread.
Back to speaker response. Reverberation time is always longer on lower frequencies and falls smoothly (in a good room) as the frequency rises. Hence, it will contribute to measured SPL in the room by increasing the values on lower side of spectrum and decreasing them on the higher side. This means that a flat on-axis response of a speaker measured at 1m of distance will actually produce something similar to the X-curve in a reverberant room. This response is fine-tuned using the EQ inside the Dolby Processor untill it gets as close as possible to X-curve.
As you can see, it is really not that simple, and by no means it is achievable with a plug-in, although we're talking about a 27-band (1/3 octave) graphic equilizer, as used in Dolby's CP boxes.
In a smaller room, in a nearfield configuration, just keep them flat.
Branko
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