Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > General Discussion & Off Topic > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-19-2007, 07:09 PM
RyanUsesThis RyanUsesThis is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 5
Default Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

Hello All..

this is probably a subject that's been done to death.. but I sure as hell can't find a way around it.. Maby somebody can shed some light on this for me.. I've taught myself a great deal about using protools, and about recording.. but as of yet I only know enough to be dangerous..

I'm in the process of recording drums for a band.. I purchased an Alesis DM5, and a Set of DDrum Pro Triggers. I'm recording Midi along with 11 tracks of audio.. using a Digi002 Rack, and an M-Audio Octane connected via ADAT lightpipe. This is may be overkill.. but I'd rather have the source and not need it, than.. yatta yatta..

Everything is recording smoothly.. and to the drummer's credit.. he's only off within milliseconds.. but he is off enough for me to want to Quantize the midi to the grid..

When I quantize the midi, and play back the sound through Battery3.. the result is crisp, perfectly timed hits... the only problem is that the overheads captured the drums too.. so I'm getting something that sounds like a poorly set delay..

...How do I get around this?

I'm a Nube to beat detective.. and so far Quantizing overhead mic recordings has proven to be one step away from the most painful thing I've ever endured..

Any suggestions would be MOST GREATLY appreciated..

Cheers,

RKN
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-19-2007, 09:04 PM
albee1952's Avatar
albee1952 albee1952 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Norwich, CT
Posts: 39,307
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

Only thing I can suggest is, dump the overheads and either overdub them or paste in new sampled cymbals and then buss the entire kit to 1 of 2 places. either to a good convolution reverb to make the kit SOUND like it was all played in a room(this has worked great for me with a Roland TD10 kit) or send the mix to a pair of speakers in a good-sounding room and toss up a pair of room mics to record the room ambience. Another possible solution is to find sections of the performance that did not need quantizing, and paste those onto the trouble spots. Maybe Beat Detective could grab the groove of the new tracks and force it onto the overhead tracks?
__________________
HP Z4 workstation, Mbox Studio
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...0sound%20works


The better I drink, the more I mix

BTW, my name is Dave, but most people call me.........................Dave
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-20-2007, 03:38 AM
Herkimer Herkimer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Boston, MA (Salem)
Posts: 407
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

I deal with this problem frequently. Here's what I do:

Set a limiter on the overhead mic tracks. Set the sidechain input for the limiter to the audio drum tracks (bus appropriately). You should hear an effect where any drum hits nearly silence the overhead track for a few milliseconds. If you notice the effect too much - which I doubt you will in a complete mix - try adding some reverb to cover the pumping.

I typically do this when I've used Sound replacer on the toms and snare and don't want the snare and toms to sound in the overheads.

It should also work in your situation. But you may have to to fiddle a little bit with re-recording the overheads to a new track. You'll want the limiting to be triggered by the flawed drum performance. Let it play to trigger the limiting and rerecord the overheads to a new track. Then, mute the flawed performance and play the newly recorded overhead track to your midi quantized drums.

Good luck.
__________________
____________________________________
Home Build:
Core i7 920/Gigabyte EX58-UD3R/6Mb Ram
Mbox2/MboxMicro
ProTools 8.0
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-20-2007, 06:44 AM
RyanUsesThis RyanUsesThis is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 5
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

Two very good suggestions. Thank you both very much.. I have considered replacing the symbols w/ sequenced symbols.. The DKFH EZDrummer kit has fantastic samples. I may steer away from replacing all the sounds though, simply because I'd like to maintain a decent amount of the "Human" quality of the performance.. the quantizing is just to keep the pace of the music as straight forward as possible..

I'd really like to try the Side Chaining option.. but where as I'm a nube with beat detective.. I've only heard hearsay of side chaining.. so I'll have to do a bit of research for my part.

Any links, or forum threads on side chaining you guys might recommend?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-20-2007, 01:42 PM
lemix's Avatar
lemix lemix is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 10,894
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

Not using Midi at all..I'd just like to ask you..if the drumkit is already printed, why don't you try to edit manually to the grid, specially if the performance is close.
If you chop and copy/paste/nudge the entire kit as an edit group, there should not be slippage between the tracks.
IMO & experience, that is a more natural way of approaching the drumkit/performance.
And..you'll still be able to use the replacement method on the individual tracks with Sound Replacer or Drumamgog.

happy tooling,
a
__________________
cheers,
Andrew


W7 pro 64_i7 3930K_16GB_ Nuendo 6.5.4-7.1.3 / PT 12.4 ------Mac Mini OSX Lion_PT 10.xx
Allen&Heath GS R-24M_ full rack of vintage analog boxes _UAD2_Nugen_iZotope_Melda_Waves_Plugin Alliance_DMG and more
2.0 and 5.1 monitoring
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-21-2007, 12:48 PM
RyanUsesThis RyanUsesThis is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 5
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

Well.. it's mostly a learning experience at this point.. so I'm trying to figure out how to make everything work with Midi in the picture. Plus.. it's a pretty decent selling point to be able to tell you're average weekend warrior musician that you can make their drum set sound like Vinnie Paul's with the click of a button..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-21-2007, 02:46 PM
superpenguin79 superpenguin79 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,783
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

not to hijack your thread Ryan, but you could always make the drummer simply redo the take until everything is perfect and learn to play properly. that midi stuff can be a blessing or a curse seriously as I am learning as well right now. I think I'm ditching it for good old fashioned drums personally but goodluck with everything.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-21-2007, 03:34 PM
EGS's Avatar
EGS EGS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,691
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

Quote:
Not using Midi at all..I'd just like to ask you..if the drumkit is already printed, why don't you try to edit manually to the grid, specially if the performance is close.
If you chop and copy/paste/nudge the entire kit as an edit group, there should not be slippage between the tracks.
IMO & experience, that is a more natural way of approaching the drumkit/performance.
And..you'll still be able to use the replacement method on the individual tracks with Sound Replacer or Drumamgog.

happy tooling,
a
I agree with lemix - edit the drums as a group to eliminate slippage between the tracks. I cut every 2 bars on a convenient hit like 2 or 4, etc. Then, I use the TCE tool to time compress or time expand as needed to land on the grid. This method preserves some human feel within the 2 bars, but fixes the overall tempo. This method also works, by the way, if the drums were recorded using NO click track. Just design a click grid after the fact, and then edit/TCE every 2 bars. You could also use multi-track Beat Detective, but I prefer the 2-bar slop idea. Give it a try!!! My 2 cents.
__________________
Desktop build: PT 2020.5 / Win 11 / i9-11900K @ 5.1GHz / 64GB / 4TB NVMe PCIe 4 / Gigabyte Z590 Vision D / PreSonus 2626
Laptop: PT 2020.5 / Win 11 / i5-12500H / 16GB / 1TB NVMe / Lenovo IdeaPad 5i Pro / U-PHORIA UMC1820
Ancient/Legacy (still works!): PT 5 & 6 / OS9 & OSX / Mac G4 / DIGI 001
Click for audio/video demo
Click for resume
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-21-2007, 06:00 PM
Naagzh Naagzh is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,175
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

You can use the LE version of Beat Detective to quantize all the drum tracks at once. It's not that difficult once you get the hang of it. Search "Beat Detective work around".

Is it possible to treat the MIDI track(s) as drum tracks with respect to Beat Detective? If so, you can use Beat Detective, and conform the hits, both real and MIDI, to the grid by, say, 80% instead of 100% (which would be perfect).

Check out the free tutorials mentioned in the Beat Detective thread in the TDM forum. It refers to multi-track Beat Detective, but as I said, there's a workaround for the LE version.

Good luck!
__________________
002R PT7.3.1
MacBook Pro 2.33
OS 10.4.8
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-22-2007, 04:34 PM
RyanUsesThis RyanUsesThis is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 5
Default Re: Quantized Triggered Drums w/ Live overhead recording..

I took everyone's advice to a certain extent. I still used triggers.. I also used beat detective on specific areas of the overheads.. and I cut the overheads together with the toms to keep them together..

Here's the unprocessed tracks..
Unprocessed

and here's what I've done so far..
Test

the guitar is just a scratch track.. line in from a Line6 Pod Pro.. I didn't modify it at all.. so it's a bit lacking.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can Strike be triggered with recorded drums? MLE Virtual Instruments 4 12-04-2012 09:45 AM
using BFD as sound for triggered drums? phoenixisland The Drum Room 3 10-28-2009 07:06 PM
Connecting Triggered Drums to MBox2 PRo JORdanDrivE 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 0 02-01-2008 03:27 PM
Can BFD Drums be triggered from a PT MIDI Track? DRLAudio Virtual Instruments 6 01-29-2007 09:13 AM
Triggered Drums / Sampler options tld Tips & Tricks 22 01-17-2001 07:09 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:13 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com