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  #1  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:25 PM
Spanzor Spanzor is offline
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Default Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

A Moderator has requested I start a new thread on the DUC rather than continue to discuss PT 2018 bugs within that specific thread.

Here is the original posting I made on Gearslutz:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/avid...-accurate.html

There is a text copied from gearslutz below. Unfortunately I do not have all of the images that have been uploaded to the GS thread, so it may help anyone responding to THIS thread to go ahead and read through th GS thread first. Anyways::




Hi all-

The past few updates have not included a fix for this problem, and Avid has told me they have no timeline for fixing this issue, and have asked for screenshots to help document the problem. Couldn't find anything here or at the DUC about this.

PICTURES ARE BELOW

If anyone has a 2 spare minutes and can help me recreate this problem, that would be very appreciated!

Recently I've started to notice that my elastic audio tracks do not even come close to sounding the same on every playback. Vocal sections that I take time to detail and time align only play back accurately if i start playback extremely close to where the adjustments are made, and DO NOT render accurately when committing.

Just a few starting points for me- when timing a vocal the first thing I do is go to analysis lane of Polyphonic and delete all the analysis markers becuase of the artifacts they cause. I then insert warp markers by hand at points i wish to time, and time the whole vocal section the way I want it to sound.

This is the problem area. When I am finished and play it back from a relatively close starting point, say within 3 seconds, everything sounds pretty good. When I play from 30 seconds before hand or so, it's as though the vocal needs to be completely retimed. When I go back to a close starting point, it's totally different.

I did a few tests to see how I can work around this problem, and have found almost no solution. For example, when I have the Polyphonic elastic audio in real time mode, I can basically see the waveform and edit the vocal by sight alone, and obviously I double check to make sure it sounds as it looks.

When I change to rendered mode, THE ENTIRE WAVEFORM BECOMES RANDOMIZED AND THE TIMING FLUCTUATES BIGLY!!!!! This happens whenever I commit elastic audio regions with a track based in ticks OR sample.

If I bus a pre-fader send from a plugin free elastic track to a non elastic track, same thing.

If I duplicate my elastic track and then consolidate the audio and leave the track in the elastic state, same thing.

If I use a PHYSICAL OUTPUT and bus my elastic track out say, output 3 for example, and use no plugins and have the fader set to unity gain and record back in through input 3, same thing.

If I remove all plugins and sends from the elastic track and choose to "commit" the track, same thing.

Basically, I haven't found a useable fix and am in the middle of some pretty important records where accurate vocal timing is... mandatory, to say the least. It's pop music.

All I want is sample accuracy. I want my consolidated/committed region to look identical to the elastic audio waveform. Otherwise what is the point of the waveform at all? Has anyone found a work around? Can anyone else recreate this situation? I've been able to recreate the problem on every PT HD rig excuse me, PT ULTIMATE rig that I have touched in the past 3 weeks.

In the photos, the GTR 1 track is the track I am timing, the duplicate is simply to show the ORIGINAL WARP MARKER LOCATION where I have hand timed the guitar track. When I consolidate/commit the GTR 1 track's elastic regions, you will notice a major timing shift, which believe it or not, is very audible

HALP!

Rig I am emailing from:

OSX 10.13.4
PT ULTIMATE (lol) 2018.4
Lynx Aurora 16 converters with TB card
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CONSOLIDATED SECTION.jpg (70.8 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg ELASTIC AUDIO MARKERS.jpg (72.1 KB, 0 views)
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  #2  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:43 PM
Nick Morzov Nick Morzov is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

can confirm, this has happened to me multiple times on very big sessions. No workarounds so far on my end...
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  #3  
Old 05-15-2018, 05:20 PM
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jeam25 jeam25 is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

Hi im i the studio and waiting for some people .

Just to recap cause im not shure on how to replicate .

I have a vocal track .
Changed to elastic audio .
Erasing the analisys marks .
Ajusted to time ( or whatever it takes )
Changing to rendered Processing .

If this is it i've duplicated the track cause of the time i just did like 15 seconds .

In the rendered processing track the waveform i changed a little but they sound the same exactly .

Changed the phase on of them and is almost null .

Let me know if im missing something .

Fisrt one is Real time processing and the secon is on Rendering processing .

In this case both of them are pretty good and very usable .

Again let me know if i missed something and btw im testing on Win 10 right now. Can text on High Sierra another time .
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:42 PM
Spanzor Spanzor is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeam25 View Post
Hi im i the studio and waiting for some people .

Just to recap cause im not shure on how to replicate .

I have a vocal track .
Changed to elastic audio .
Erasing the analisys marks .
Ajusted to time ( or whatever it takes )
Changing to rendered Processing .

If this is it i've duplicated the track cause of the time i just did like 15 seconds .

In the rendered processing track the waveform i changed a little but they sound the same exactly .

Changed the phase on of them and is almost null .

Let me know if im missing something .

Fisrt one is Real time processing and the secon is on Rendering processing .

In this case both of them are pretty good and very usable .

Again let me know if i missed something and btw im testing on Win 10 right now. Can text on High Sierra another time .
The point is that it is NOT the same, and in your particular case, maybe it doesn't bother you, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem for other people or that it's always usable.

Try consolidating a stretched elastic region, and then undoing/redoing back and forth. See the differences? That's what I don' want.

Where is your original file and where is your consolidated file? The original file should still show the warp markers and the new file should show new analysis markers. These just show waveforms and the screenshot is not very comprehensive.

If you check the screenshots that I uploaded you can see major differences, which in fact ARE unusable, so maybe for your particular session and for your style of producing, maybe it's fine, but for a power user, like Nick Morzov, myself, or anyone else who is making a living making records with pro tools, often times we end up editing things a second time by hand to fix elastic audio errors.

"Good enough" isn't a solid answer IMO
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:45 PM
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jeam25 jeam25 is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

Well im gonna check later but i do living doing this too . So slow down a little bit friend im trying to help you here .
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  #6  
Old 05-15-2018, 05:55 PM
Spanzor Spanzor is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeam25 View Post
Well im gonna check later but i do living doing this too . So slow down a little bit friend im trying to help you here .
Thanks. Here's another great example with some help in the track comments to better understand what's going on:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/show...9&postcount=14

You can take a look at the transients at the beginning of words and where words end. IMO, all these tracks should be nearly identical since they are simply a rendered version of the original track.

The top track is the timed vocal with warp markers that I've inserted and stretched to where I want. The middle track is a committed version of the same track, which has different transients/waveform placement enough to notice, and the last track is a solo'd unity gain bounce from the master output, reimported back into the session. The last track is also very different than the other two.

Audibly, the differences are not small enough to be overlooked.

Last edited by Spanzor; 05-15-2018 at 06:00 PM. Reason: extra word
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  #7  
Old 06-02-2018, 12:11 PM
Spanzor Spanzor is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

bump
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  #8  
Old 06-02-2018, 02:27 PM
CHRIS AIKEN CHRIS AIKEN is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

I’ve had this happen as well. I was lining up bg vocal tracks to the main vocal. After lots of tweaking I had it tight like I wanted. Then later (not sure what triggered it) suddenly the timing was very sloppy. I thought I was going nuts but it’s happened a few times now so realized it’s a bug.


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Old 06-05-2018, 08:52 AM
Spanzor Spanzor is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS AIKEN View Post
I’ve had this happen as well. I was lining up bg vocal tracks to the main vocal. After lots of tweaking I had it tight like I wanted. Then later (not sure what triggered it) suddenly the timing was very sloppy. I thought I was going nuts but it’s happened a few times now so realized it’s a bug.


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Thanks for confirming the problem Chris. Where is jeam25?
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  #10  
Old 06-05-2018, 10:50 AM
moshuajusic moshuajusic is offline
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Default Re: Elastic Audio Rendering is Not Accurate

Wonder if this is related to an EA bug I mentioned ages ago, where it doesn't fully process until you add or delete another marker. Or something like that. It was a workaround for seemingly endless EA processing time (greyed out clips).

PRO TOOLS HAS BECOME BLOATWARE

PT12/2018 is going in the wrong direction. They're putting lipstick on a dinosaur. PT needs a complete recoding.

I feel like Trusty. "Don't recollect if ahh've eva mentioned ol' reliable befo'!"
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