Eleven Rack Live setup limitation? (PA + on stage amp)

[xazqe]

I've been struggling to figure out how to use a "Rig Output No Cab" setting coming out from "Output to Amp 1" while wanting to maintain the cabinet simulation in the Main Analog Outputs to the PA.

As far as I've tried this seems impossible with my sound patch, as I want to maintain the current signal chain intact with stereo effects going out to the PA whilst the same signal (with all effects) but without cab would go out to the on stage amplifier.

I would like this to work because the on stage combo amp is set to a transparent, clean setting, but I want the sound from the 11R amp simulation.

If I bypass the cabinet, I get the signal I want to the on stage amp, but the main PA output sounds horrible without cab simulation. I seem to have to compromise.

Why isn't there a workaround for this?

Here is my setup: http://uprightsounds.com/pics/live/eleven_rack1.png

I know that moving the amp/cab simulation to the end of the signal chain would "solve" this problem effects wise, but that would break the stereo signal path in delay and reverb, which I want to output to the PA in stereo, NOT mono. What's the point of having a stereo delay otherwise..? And moving the amp/cab to the end of the signal chain completely changes the sound of my setup, which I've been perfecting for quite a while and am quite pleased with and don't want to change. But even if I did this, there would still be the issue of wanting the cab simulation to the PA but not to the on stage combo.

I'm a bit confused, the 11R is so versatile otherwise but not in this for me typical live setup. The user guide doesn't take this possible problem into consideration.

Stefan

[Darryl Ramm]

This has come up here multiple times recently. You can search for those threads.

If you put the amp1 and/or amp2 output at the output of the amp/cab block then it automatically disables speaker sim to that output (without anything obvious showing the user this is happening on either the Eleven Rack front panel display or int he Pro Tools Eleven Rack Window). If you have amp1 and amp2 outputs at the end of he chain then you can only turn on or off the cab sim globally.

Yes its a pretty obvious design problem. There has been talk here including from Avid folks of separating the amp/cab blocks (then you could insert effects there). You are correct - your only choice is to move effects before the amp and (in your rig picture) move amp1 to the amp/cab block (where the cab sim is silently/magically turned off) but leave the global cab resonance on.

Darryl

[aaron.ferrer]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

This has come up here multiple times recently. You can search for those threads.

If you put the amp1 and/or amp2 output at the output of the amp/cab block then it automatically disables speaker sim to that output (without anything obvious showing the user this is happening on either the Eleven Rack front panel display or int he Pro Tools Eleven Rack Window). If you have amp1 and amp2 outputs at the end of he chain then you can only turn on or off the cab sim globally.

Yes its a pretty obvious design problem. There has been talk here including from Avid folks of separating the amp/cab blocks (then you could insert effects there). You are correct - your only choice is to move effects before the amp and (in your rig picture) move amp1 to the amp/cab block (where the cab sim is silently/magically turned off) but leave the global cab resonance on.

Darryl

It has been addressed that the 11R does not have enough processing power to do this, as it's a single processor chip. In order to do this, it would have to process the after amp effects WITH the cab sims, and then process them WITHOUT the sims, effectively two signal chains.

One thing I am not sure of, and this popped into my head during the gig last night, is if it is possible to set one amp output to "Rig out no cab" and the other to "Rig output" and send one to the board via DI box.

I don't see it as a design problem, as the 11R was designed primarily for recording, and a secondary for live use.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by aaron.ferrer

It has been addressed that the 11R does not have enough processing power to do this, as it's a single processor chip. In order to do this, it would have to process the after amp effects WITH the cab sims, and then process them WITHOUT the sims, effectively two signal chains.

One thing I am not sure of, and this popped into my head during the gig last night, is if it is possible to set one amp output to "Rig out no cab" and the other to "Rig output" and send one to the board via DI box.

I don't see it as a design problem, as the 11R was designed primarily for recording, and a secondary for live use.

Enough processing power to do what exactly? It needs a recode of how things work internally now but since Avid folks have been on here talking about how separating that the amp and cab has been up for thought internally I would not exclude this as a possibility. Once those blocks are separated then I would hope there is no significant extra processing needed. You take the signal out straight from the amp block. Remember now this is effectively being done anyhow when you connect an amp1/amp2 output to the amp sim block.

Avid really does needs to address this, and the lack of a good foot controller story (Avid branded and/or working with third parties) to improve live use. The Axe-FX and Pod HD competition should help ensure this happens.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by aaron.ferrer

One thing I am not sure of, and this popped into my head during the gig last night, is if it is possible to set one amp output to "Rig out no cab" and the other to "Rig output" and send one to the board via DI box.

Ah Rig Output No Cab on any amp output means the global cab sim is turned off. For all the current reasons you are talking about.

If you set say amp1 to amp output and amp2 to rig output and have the global cab resonance on then that will be on amp2 but not amp1. But the problem is with people wanting to drive stage amps/cabs where they have ER effects blocks (or the FX loop) after the ER amp/cab block where this no longer works.

Darryl

[aaron.ferrer]

I thought about it once more, and yes, That is correct. No need to reprocess twice if the cab block is separated and placed at the end, which it should be. To just "add" the option of two output options would entail extra processing.

Currently I get around this by using an H&K redbox or voodoolabs cabtone on the other output.

so selecting "rig out no cab" automatically removes the option to select anything further than that? IE the only other options ar from the poweramp and the guitar input only I guess?

[xazqe]

Thanks for the quick replies! I agree. The separation of the amp and cab would solve all problems for me in this scenario.

Basically it's just like making it possible to have an internal FX loop inbetween Eleven Rack's amp head and cabinet, just like there today is a physical external one. There I would put my stereo delay, reverb etc.

Wouldn't this though require 2 cabinets (stereo output = stereo micing)? Like the later Line6 POD XTs seem to have stereo amp/cabinet setups.

Originally Posted by aaron.ferrer

I don't see it as a design problem, as the 11R was designed primarily for recording, and a secondary for live use.

I don't see why you say the Eleven Rack is primarily for recording, when the reason I bought it was the fact that you could take the sounds from the studio on stage, like all the promotional videos are saying. Therefore this amp/cab separation should be in the next firmware release (after 2.0.1) for Avid to stand up to what they promised in their advertising.

From all the demonstrational video content it seemed to me that the 11R was a extremely well thought through product with the possibility to (quoting one of the videos) "tap the signal from anywhere within the signal chain". But apparently they hadn't thought of this scenario, which to me would be the most common and obvious scenario for live performances whether it's 11R or Axe FX. I don't see how they could miss this one if they have had input from live performing musicians when it comes to product design and functionality, this usage scenario should have come up in the early stages of development?

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by xazqe

Thanks for the quick replies! I agree. The separation of the amp and cab would solve all problems for me in this scenario.

Basically it's just like making it possible to have an internal FX loop inbetween Eleven Rack's amp head and cabinet, just like there today is a physical external one. There I would put my stereo delay, reverb etc.

Wouldn't this though require 2 cabinets (stereo output = stereo micing)? Like the later Line6 POD XTs seem to have stereo amp/cabinet setups.

Yes. So from that aspect more compute power would be used (and separating the cab fully from the amp sims might well need more compute power than how it is being done today.) We'll have to see. Chris Townsend has hinted that there is significant compute power remaining. But at least you don't have to compute the amp and then separately amp+cab.

Darryl

[xazqe]

Ok maybe there is some hope then.

It just boggles me that the 11R has been around for quite a while already (late 2009?) and I've only just purchased it a couple of months ago and already come across this issue and it hasn't been resolved yet.

Sorry if I might come across as negative, I still think the 11R is an amazing piece of equipment, it's just surprising to see that it hasn't been "perfected" yet or reached it's full potential in design firmware wise. I put all my hopes into the 11R for live use to the extent that I've started to sell off some of my pedals from my bulky old huge and heavy pedal board since I thought the 11R would fill all my needs accompanied with maybe a ground control. And it does! Except for this last little detail.

Stefan

[TieDyedDevil]

Originally Posted by xazqe

I don't see why you say the Eleven Rack is primarily for recording, when the reason I bought it was the fact that you could take the sounds from the studio on stage, like all the promotional videos are saying. Therefore this amp/cab separation should be in the next firmware release (after 2.0.1) for Avid to stand up to what they promised in their advertising.

From all the demonstrational video content it seemed to me that the 11R was a extremely well thought through product with the possibility to (quoting one of the videos) "tap the signal from anywhere within the signal chain". But apparently they hadn't thought of this scenario, which to me would be the most common and obvious scenario for live performances whether it's 11R or Axe FX. I don't see how they could miss this one if they have had input from live performing musicians when it comes to product design and functionality, this usage scenario should have come up in the early stages of development?

Kind of begging the question, aren't you?

You assume that anyone who wants to use the ER live will necessarily want to run through a guitar cab, right?

I'm pretty sure that's not the way *everyone* uses a modeler live. If I had to hazard a guess, it'd be that the use of a guitar cab is a minority option. Not that my observations are worth anything (the plural of "anecdote" is not "fact"), but I personally have never seen anyone using a high-end modeler in the manner you suggest. A poll on TGP, where the sample is both larger and more diverse (although, I'd argue, probably still skewed to users of high-end modelers), shows that roughly 70% play through a FRFR amplification system, 18% through a guitar cab, and the rest through a guitar amp (which I find really puzzling).

There's only one good reason to prefer FRFR amplification: that's the way the unit was designed to be used. Sure, it'd be more flexible to separate the amp and cab into separate blocks, but that's not the way the Eleven Rack has been designed, is it? Obvious from a quick read through the manual; hardly a defect in any sense of the word that I understand.