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  #11  
Old 02-16-2017, 05:08 AM
Cheesehead Cheesehead is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

I wouldn't say mixers are 'bass managing' music in Theatrical mixes.
As Bob and Garret say, you can't rely on the lfe channel being reproduced and the main speakers are full range anyway.

That doesn't mean that the sub isn't used for music though.
Just as it would be in the 5.1 mixes of music as delivered to the mix stage.

I haven't heard a dvd or bluray before that is 'bass managed' in the mix, (ie all the content is consistently sent to the sub), I'll have to look at Deadpool and see what you mean.

It sounds like a very bad idea and I can see your problem, double bass management in a home theatre, ugh!.
Of course the near-field mix and certainly the DVD/Blu-ray mastering, isn't necessarily done by the mixer themselves, so I suppose weird things can happen.
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  #12  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:17 AM
houser houser is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Hi Cheesehead,

Don't know what to call it if not bass management. What do you want to call it?

All upmix plugins like Penteo, Halo, Anymix Pro, Waves UM 226 apart from other things all technically do bass management if you set a x-over and send stuff to the LFE. You obviously don’t have to send it to the LFE but the functionality is in there and I would suspect it is often used that way as it can sound good if you use it cleverly.
No problem in cinemas AFAIK with that if done right.
I am also well aware of the old-school Dolby guidelines to not use the LFE for music.
While mixing music to the LFE may well sound good at the mixing stage or in a properly calibrated cinema, it becomes and issue for Home Cinema calibration. How to handle that is pretty much all I am discussing.
The Deadpool ”nearfield mix” on the BD does sound pretty good if your Home Cinema has full range screen channels and you then switch off bass management.
If you have small screenspeakers and use bass management to get the full sound of the LCR by using your LFE you are probably out of luck. Unless you are lucky enough to have a BD that matches your own setup.

It seems to me that with the diversity of styles of home cinemas, the industry have not thought their “nearfieldmixes” through. And I wish they would simply stick the theatrical mix on the BD rather than produce a tweaked “nearfieldmix”. Perhaps with larger discs we can have both in the future? Ah well. Like anything in this day and age the standards fall apart it seems. FWIW YMMV.
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  #13  
Old 02-17-2017, 04:06 PM
Cheesehead Cheesehead is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Hi Houser,

Bass management to me means, like you say, sending the low end part of the whole mix including the lfe to the sub to compensate for small satellite speakers.

I don't think putting a bit of lfe on upmixed music or elements of the music in the mix is the same thing at all and shouldn't cause a problem in a bass managed system. What you hear would be very similar to in the theatre as long as the bass management and the feed from the discreet Lfe are reaching the sub at the same time. Otherwise yes, phasing issues would be a problem.

I haven't seen Deadpool yet though, I'll check it out.
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  #14  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:26 AM
houser houser is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Hi Cheesehead,
Appreciate the back and forth and don't think we disagree on anything.
I guess I am focusing on the results of the use of bassmanagement in various mix scenarios and how it translates to various Home Cinema scenarios, which is rather unclear today.
Dual bass managed content with one known and one unknown x-over is not a good thing for room tuning. Ah well, thanx again!
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  #15  
Old 02-18-2017, 04:45 AM
houser houser is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Cheesehead,
Googled it some more and found this pretty interesting interesting read, even if not fresh from the press:

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb...001428/p1.html

Boldened italics is mine
“ We often create the Near Field Mix (AKA Home Theater master) on the next day after the theatrical M&E. We have been known to raise the center dialogue channel a tad, limit the dynamic range a touch, do some bass management,or to even narrow the stereo spread a bit to conform to a narrower home screen. “

I wish they would just leave it alone. If needed, hopefully this can perhaps be achieved with metadata in the future...
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  #16  
Old 02-18-2017, 07:25 AM
garret garret is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Just read that thread. All I can say is wow.
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  #17  
Old 02-18-2017, 08:04 AM
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Wow indeed!

The reason I was told a separate mix is required for home is entirely for the illusion to "work" properly with the smaller screen size. This was demonstrated to me in a very convincing manner. There really ought to be separate mixes for multiplex theaters too.

The reason for putting nothing important in the LFE and surrounds is simply that only a handful of people will ever occupy the sweet spot in a theater.
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2017, 01:24 AM
houser houser is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Yes, that thread is rather depressing. Still picking up my jaw from the floor.

We are probably all too well informed on the various "standards" we have to mix for in various scenarios for television and such and the need for them, but I guess I was just surprised that the practice described in the above thread has snuck in under the radar on hi-end BD releases. Paradoxically, the mid to low budget releases may not have the budget for a "nearfield mix", so you may get the real deal on them.

As somebody who has mixed for various standards and who is also an avid home cinema fan with a fairly serious 7.1.4 atmos setup I can safely say that the original theatrical mixes are great in my setup.
No problemo.

I wonder if somebody (Dolby?) could still find a way to put the standard full-blown theatrical mix on the BD and then allow people to fold-down to their own home listening environment using standard metadata parameters, it being anything from a small TV, to a large-ish $150 000 home cinema that more or less leaves the theatrical mix alone.
It would be hard but perhaps not impossible? I see the tech in the menus of consumer receivers, but always switch it off.
A special release with the theatrical mix on it, or as an option probably has a nieche market for it (I would buy it) and as an example Criterion released "The Game" on Blu-ray with both the theatrical and near field mixes on it (both DTSHDMA) but a problem with the latest greatest Atmos releases is that the audio can take up a lot of space on the BD so optional Atmos tracks is currently probably not an option.
Ah well, we can dream can't we

Last edited by houser; 02-19-2017 at 07:20 AM.
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2017, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

THX was supposed to solve all this.
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  #20  
Old 02-19-2017, 03:11 PM
Carl Kolchak Carl Kolchak is offline
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Default Re: What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
THX was supposed to solve all this.


Except I don't think THX do house calls, to set up consumer's living rooms .

And can you imagine just how huge a widescreen TV would need to be, if you adhere to THX guidelines, given how far most people sit from the screen

Given that most girlfriend / wives / mothers tend to go ape, if you try to bring anything larger than a 32" screen in to the house (and then complain that it's too small, and far away) .


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