Does HD SOUND Better ?? LE forum guy needs advice

[righteousvibe]

I just upgraded from Pro Tools LE 7.1 to Pro Tools HD2 7.2. The upgrade went flawless. I am using an Apogee Rosetta 800/96k with the X-HD card as the front end interface. I bought it originally to use as a Pro Tools LE interface via Adat Optical for better AD/DA conversion, and because I knew if I ever upgraded to PT HD all I'd need was the X-HD card (succession planning is a must when spending money).

Anyway, I unistalled the PT LE 7.1 using the PT default recommended partial uninstall (not the full/clean uninstall). Then I installed the PCI HD Core and PCI HD Accel in the G5 and attached the card ribbon. Next, I used the digilink cable to connect the Appogee to the HD Core Card. Next, I installed the 7.2 HD software and follwed the prompts and answered the question for the correct and appropriate configuration for my system. Then, I registered my software and hardware at the Digidesign site and also downloaded and installed the PT HD 7.2.2cse updates. Then of course a visit to the PACE website to download the authorizations to my ilok. Then I launched Pro Tools HD2 7.2 .....Amazing!!!! I pulled up a session that was done in LE, then made some I/O configuration adjustments and Man...what a difference....I heard it immediately, Big, Wide, Spacious and defined. I also us a UAD-1 Ultra Card and all the plug-ins, TDM, RTAS, UAD-1 operate flawlessly.

If there is anything I can help with just shoot me an email.

Thanks
RighteousVibe

[innesireinar]

I am in the same your situation, still on LE with a Rosetta 800 and I'm planning to jump to an HD as soon as I can. The first reason why I want to leave the LE is the latency since I don't use any external console. Before any recording session I'm forced to bounce to two tracks the main elements and deactivate all individual tracks in order to be able to reduce the HW buffer at least at 128 samples for avoiding too much latency for the musician involved in the recording session.
About the quality there have been tons of threads about that and regarding the plugins some months ago I've asked to Paul Frindle (ex SonyOXF cheaf designer) if there were sonic differences between TDM and RTAS version of their stuff.
This was the answer:

"Thats actually a deeper question than perhaps you mean to ask, as I have witnessed 'beliefs' of +ve for RTAS (as they have the fabled 'float math some people believe is somehow 'better') and -ve (because they are easier to make and can run on the cheaper PTLE).

But in honesty we have gone to great lengths to ensure that they are exactly and precisely the same as far as the user is concerned - even to the point of adding stuff to force them to be the same. The reason for this is that either something is working as intended or it's not; if the RTAS were different from the TDM - one of them would be wrong and I just couldn't live with that!
This would also be highly confusing and unfair to the user and not in the least the kind of uncertainty one would expect from a high end professional application used by people whose reputations are on the line. I couldn't live with that either :-("

[danocaster]

. The first reason why I want to leave the LE is the latency since I don't use any external console.

I want to go HD so I get the better resolution ( assuming its there ).. My workaround for latency is I have a 2nd output coming from the 002s main out. When I have a larger session and am still tracking , I switch to the 002's output instead of the Apogee and enable Low Latency.. Works FINE - doesnt sound as nice but as soon as the tracking is done - I go back to the Apogee

THAT is worth the $10K savings.. that's an easy work-around for me

It's ONLY the sound that I care about at this point

[innesireinar]

I've never tried the Low Latency feature because my 002R in/out have never been connected and because from what I remember PT in LLM mode doesn't allow to use sends and vocalists often want some rev when recording.
Regarding the TDM/LE debate I suggest you to pick a session and mix it in a HD sys that has the same plugins installed (maybe if you go to your local dealer with the intention to buy an HD I'm sure he allows you to do the mix), then A/B the mix done in the LE and the one done in the HD.
The better thing is to have another person who switch between the two mixes while you are listening to without seeing which mix is playing.

[jeff markham]

Just to play devil's advocate, the 48bit pipeline has 24bit kinks all through it. Anytime you add a plugin or hardware insert on a channel you are truncating your 48bit signal to 24bits.
Matt

you're right .. you have to be mindful of the truncation points .. but on summation paths .. i like
the way it sounds (as compared to LE). and i know what you're talking about .. sonar has
a 64bit audio pipeline with 64 bit double precision. however, it suffers from the similar problems
of plug-in truncation. if you can avoid them ... it sounds really really good.

jeff

[bpert]

ADC is definitely worth the price alone. Not to mention Beat Detective on as many tracks as you want at once... way better AD/DA converters... better plug-ins... i say go for it!! Or if not, buy a smaller format console like the adb-16 or something that will give a boost to your mixes.

[Muzoid]

"ADC is definitely worth the price alone."

I will play devil's advocate here. I have an HD2 Accel system and it's very cool, I admit. I have 16 channels of Apogee and Analog Summing and it's all great, but here's another perspective...

After MIx, I went to LE and an 002. I just wasn't into the HD thing. I'd tried it and it didn't seem like it was all that much better then Mix (to me), so before it was worth nothing, I sold my MixPlus and got an 002 and then a Dual G5 and then mixed an album with it and at the time I had an Apogee Trak2 as the front/back end and everything (very surprisingly to me) was actually really great!!! The mixes came out great. LE has NO latency on most of the plugs and when it does have any, it's enormous, so you just shift the audio... so in short everything was kinda great. and the G5 provided tons of power for tons of plug-ins.

So, I was cool for the moment and though I knew I needed more than an LE system, I was content to wait and see what the next hardware incarnation (after HD) was gonna be. Then sometime in the Fall of '05 I got an album project to mix and the 1st session arrived and there was like 80 tracks (m$%^&**er,f&^(*cker) in it. I mixed and mixed and bounced and deactivated and reactivated and mixed some more and then the day I had to submit the mix, LE 7 was released and now I had 2 processors working and the mix was cool and the client loved it but I knew it was over right then and there and ordered my HD system and more Apogee interfaces and spent ALL the money from that project. 3 months later, they released MPT - Boy, was I ever pissed off! I upgraded solely because of track count and really could have waited.

The short of it is this... HD has been around for a long time now and if you don't have to have it, I would advise you to wait and see what's next coming down the Digi pipeline.

Also ADC (which I didn't need in LE, 'cause the plugs have NO latency) eats up DSP like a crack addict on an all night binge - for the life of me, I can't figure out why you can put an RTAS Convolution Reverb on an Aux in LE and there's NO latency, but in HD (the clearly superior system) there is massive latency, and I have to burn tons of DSP power to deal with it - what is up with that?

The other big thing that you should think about is a control surface. While it may take a week or 2 to get the hang of one... once you make the transition, you'll never go back and your mixes will happen faster, be bettter and way more fun - in short, you'll wonder how you ever managed without one. While an HD system and a ProControl work very nicely right now, they will be looking old and tired in a year or two at most, when everyone has the next generation of Digi hardware and D-Commands or D-Controls.

So there's my rant on the every continuing upgrade saga. Good Luck!

[danocaster]

Thanks Muziod - and everyone

Your post is very interesting. I do find that my plugs have NO latency for the most part. When doing any parallel bussing - I make certain of it. But most of my better plugs display a latency of 0.

I also already DO have a command 8 - which did make a huge difference in my mixing. I dont have the workspace for anything bigger

HHmmmm... I wonder what's down the pipeline

[jeff markham]

Thanks Muziod - and everyone

HHmmmm... I wonder what's down the pipeline

a very wide pipeline and some chips to go with it ;-)

jeff

[nikki-k]

If it is the difference in the "sound" of PT HD vs PT LE, and you are otherwise happy with what you have, then take the money and invest elsewhere IMO. First thing I would do is buy Nika's book, and find the time to read it...more than once. People on forums ofttimes simply regurgitate diatribe and such they read and hear elsewhere. It is the extremely rare case where a person or persons have actually had a "clean enviornment" in which to do a comparative listen like this would require. "Perceived" improvement will exist, and if this suits your desires, ignore me...but at least take time to read Nika's book please.

If the TDM mixer vs a native 32-float done right is preventing a mix from being all it can be, then the person at the helm needs to find a new job. Period.

That said, and as others have pointed out, there are other pros...and cons...to going HD. I would consider them VERY heavily before forking over cash, especially if you are satisfied with your current setup. For a "better sound," I would first look at your room, monitors, and then converters. Heck, even a "refurb" of your room could make things "sound better," simply through the sublte- or not so subtle- changes. More comfy? Tired of looking at the same crap every day for the past X years?

If I could have the HD software, and run it natively, with voices and ADC (like most every other app out there has), I wouldn't use the HD hardware (HD2 Accel here...for now...). I would sell the cards in a heartbeat, and opt for spending that $$$ somewhere more effective.