Waves Studiorack

[studioj11]

Originally Posted by Emcha_audio

That's the thing, you're supposed to be able to use the sgp in conjunction to HDX Hosting plugins on the HDX and hosting plugins on the SGP. What happens in in the effect chains you use to track, you got a couple of plugins on the SGP and on the HDX simultaniously on the same track that you have record enabled on?

I think thats where you're confused. If you use Soundgrid in SGP mode, you would be using the Soundgrid core audio driver and NOT your HDX cards. You still can use the Avid IO's however. the signal path here is studio rack plugin / playback -> ethernet ->DLS or DLI -> Avid IO... or in the other direction : audio signal -> avid io ->DLS or DLI -> ethernet -> studio rack plugin / protools track. This would be an entirely native environment besides plugins you host on the sound grid server via the studio rackplugin.

If you want to use your HDX cards with Digigrid you would run the digigrid in "IO Mode"... and digigrid connects to an HDX port (or one of your IO's expansion port) via digilink. it becomes a hardware insert / io to either patch into an audio network, or host DSP accelerated waves plugins. With this mode you can run sound grid plugs in addition to AAX DSP plugs and you are only adding the latency created by the trip to the server and back which is .8 ms at sound grid's lowest buffer setting (sound grid has a buffer too, but it defaults to the lowest setting). I would assume Pro tools can even delay compensate for this small latency if you wish just like it can for other hardware inserts.

[Emcha_audio]

That's pretty much what was said, the problem is that we still don't have the hard numbers with actual plugins hosted on the sgp ontop of the .8 ms, unless they have released a list recently that I wasn't aware of.

[propower]

Still clear as mud for non Digigrid plugins - but it does mention a 4ms Core Audio driver number + A/D D/A - it seems that in this case one also has the 2X DAW buffer to add in as well as any plug in specific delays - would be WAY more than regular AVID plug ins using HDN TB for instance...

So - to my thinking -
-SGP mode and all WAVES SG plug ins - happy place for latency -
-SGP mode and NON Waves plug ins - could be not so good
-i/o mode in HDX - adds 0.8ms + any plug specific delay - OK place for latency
-i/o mode with HDN and emotion mixer with Waves SG plugs - happy place
-??? mode with Waves plugins and HDN - 2X DAW buffer + 0.8ms + plug specific delay - HDN alone way better
-??? mode with NON Waves plugins and HDN - 2X DAW buffer + 4ms?? + plug specific delay - HDN alone way better

Would really LOVE it if someone in the know would lay out all these use scenarios with numbers (or video) just to clear this kind of talk up.

From their own FAQ page
Latency is something that may change between systems. If you're not using SoundGrid processing at all, the total latency depends on your DAW's native buffer + SoundGrid system A/D, D/A and network buffer:

• A/D latency – less than 1 ms (see device manual for specific figures).
• SoundGrid ASIO/Core Audio driver latency – 4 ms.
• D/A latency – less than 1 ms (see device manual for specific figures).

The default processing latency is the same for all DiGiGrid I/Os. The lowest latency to server and back (DSP processing on all systems) is 0.8 ms. If plugins introduce latency, this also needs to be taken into account. For the latencies of individual Waves plugins, consult this plugin latencies chart.
Internal processing for DiGiGrid DLS is only 0.8 ms for HDX users, but 0.8 ms + HDN buffer x2 for users of HD Native.
For Native users of DiGiGrid IOS in low-latency monitoring mode, internal processing latency is 0.8 ms + the latency introduced by A/D and D/A convertors. No matter which native buffer parameters are set on your DAW, this is the round trip when you use the StudioRack and eMotion ST low-latency path:

• A/D latency – less than 1 ms (see device manual for specific figures).
• SoundGrid processing (StudioRack + eMotion ST mixer) – 0.8 ms.
• Plugin latency – depends which plugins and how many of them are instantiated (consult this Waves plugin latency chart).
• D/A latency – less than 1 ms (see device manual for specific figures).

[Emcha_audio]

Originally Posted by propower

-i/o mode in HDX - adds 0.8ms + any plug specific delay - OK place for latency

Just checked the link for the plugin latency.

Bass rider has a 3704 sample latency at 96khz. .that means it's 38.58333333333333... milliseconds of latency, add the 0.8 for the round trip and 4 milliseconds (at best buffer, it seems to suggest the buffer may change due to load, and pretty sure that there has to be a internal buffer to the system) you're at 43.38333333333333... milliseconds which is getting very substantial. We're talking 4,164.8 samples in total including the 4 MS and 0.8 MS for the buffer and round trip respectively. And that's for 1 plugin.. add any other plugins and...

Imagine adding the L3-16 Multimaximizer with its 10367 samples at 96khz that's an other 107.9895833333333 milliseconds ..ouch

Originally Posted by propower

The default processing latency is the same for all DiGiGrid I/Os. The lowest latency to server and back (DSP processing on all systems) is 0.8 ms. If plugins introduce latency, this also needs to be taken into account. For the latencies of individual Waves plugins, consult this plugin latencies chart.
Internal processing for DiGiGrid DLS is only 0.8 ms for HDX users, but 0.8 ms + HDN buffer x2 for users of HD Native.
For Native users of DiGiGrid IOS in low-latency monitoring mode, internal processing latency is 0.8 ms + the latency introduced by A/D and D/A convertors. No matter which native buffer parameters are set on your DAW, this is the round trip when you use the StudioRack and eMotion ST low-latency path:
[/I]

• A/D latency – less than 1 ms (see device manual for specific figures).
• SoundGrid processing (StudioRack + eMotion ST mixer) – 0.8 ms.
• Plugin latency – depends which plugins and how many of them are instantiated (consult this Waves plugin latency chart).
• D/A latency – less than 1 ms (see device manual for specific figures).

To me this read that if you're using the emotion mixer st to do low latency monitoring, then you cannot use any plugin on Natively at the same time because it doesn't leave the server itself, else you would have to add the 4 milliseconds of latency for the buffer.

[studioj11]

Why on earth would you want to track through either of those plugins? and L3-16 is not soundgrid compatible anyway. Native only.

[Emcha_audio]

Originally Posted by studioj11

Why on earth would you want to track through either of those plugins? and L3-16 is not soundgrid compatible anyway. Native only.

It was an example, and if it's not then they should state it in the latency chart which they don't, they only list it under native / soundgrid. Had to go and look at the very plugin on their website to see that you were right about it not being compatible with soundgrid.

But the point being is that there can be a hell of a lot of added latency on top of the system itself when mix matching plugins (Native + SGP) and tracking, compared to what would have been if they had simply made the HDX plugins.

[upscaps]

In regards to HDX users.

Buying this Waves system just to be able to track through waves plugins is a terrible marketing stance. All the latency numbers are meaningless to me just like UAD2 latency numbers. IMO, there is no plugin that Waves makes that is a must to track through that can't be done with the included/available AAX-DSP plugins.

As an HDX user I see this as a Waves version of a UAD2 card. Do I use so many waves plugins as native to justify purchasing this unit to go w/ AAX-DSP and UAD2 Octos? Nope.

DigiGrid server would be much more attractive if DMG, Fabfilter, etc. were on board.

[studioj11]

Originally Posted by Emcha_audio

It was an example, and if it's not then they should state it in the latency chart which they don't, they only list it under native / soundgrid. Had to go and look at the very plugin on their website to see that you were right about it not being compatible with soundgrid.

But the point being is that there can be a hell of a lot of added latency on top of the system itself when mix matching plugins (Native + SGP) and tracking, compared to what would have been if they had simply made the HDX plugins.

well if you track through sound grid monitoring (using studio rack) you can not mix native and SG plugins. you would not hear any native plugins instantiated on the PT track.

I'm a bit less focused on the minutia when it comes to this stuff and rely more on feel and sense of convenience... but as far as latency the only latency that would concern you is on the track that is in record at any given time. And most of the waves plugs that are SG (not all) have minimal (or no) delay, just like they did with TDM. As someone who worked with TDM for 8 or so years I can say this system feels like that even if you are running in SGP mode when you are tracking through StudioRack in SG mode.

But yes, if you are an HDX user and feel you have plenty of DSP to spare then it makes less sense to buy into this solely for plugin hosting. I think waves et al are too focused on that for the HDX user...

the networking thing however is the effing bomb. AND if you are a native person in ANY daw this tech will bring new freedom to your tracking process.

[propower]

I have to agree that all the marketing aimed at HDX users seems misplaced unless they care about the networking part. It is a DSP tracking solution for Waves only - just like UAD - and I too believe this is much more attractive to Native folk. For many Waves there is zero additional latency but for many I actually would use there is significant - Ren Channel and Ren Comp (1.5ms at 44.1 + 0.8 for SG + A/D + D/A =~ 4.3ms w/ AVID i/o) for instance.

[Bob Olhsson]

The studio rack plug-in can be run in input mode with no plug-ins at all to give you 40 sample input monitoring on a project requiring a huge buffer setting.

It took me quite a while to wrap my head around that but this is a revolution for native systems along with being a way to get HDX performance from SoundGrid plug-ins.