D-Control--Why so large?

[RKrizman]

[
Kriz,

You DID say "Scale it down with smaller knobs, closer faders and more dedicated funtionality, with an ethernet rather than MIDI/HUI connection, for 20 grand, and I think you'd have something." Perhaps I mistook that to mean making it smaller with less features for a lower price. (I"m also presuming that you meant to say "with a MIDI/HUI connection rather than Ethernet" rather than the other way around...the Icon does work on Ethernet).

By "scale it down" I meant physically---that is, make it smaller. And no, I did mean to say "ethernet rather than MIDI/HUI". That's one of the advantages of the D-Control.

In a nutshell, in as plain English as I can muster, I would like to see Digi make a control surface that has all the functionality of the D-Control, if not more, with a smaller footprint (smaller knobs, closer faders, etc), and a more reasonable price. If a 3rd party had access to the code I'm guessing it could be done quite profitably for 20 k. They'd sell like hotcakes.

The thing that really got me going about the big knobs was when I put a Focusrite eq on the center section and started to tweak some frequencies. When I do that on my Trident I get an almost physical sense of satisfaction as I turn a knob and feel a track brightening or a bass blooming at 100 hz, or whatever. When I twisted that big old mushroom knob with the Focusrite eq the resulting thin and unimpressive sound just made the knob seem way too big and gave me no rewarding physical sensation.

Mixing digitally is more of a surgical process than mixing analog, and I think the tools should feel more surgical and less "blunt instrument."

As always, just my opinion.

-R

[RKrizman]

As far as my position, let's just say that I work closely with many of the "big name" engineers who may (or may not) end up having interest in the Icon. And, like anyone in my position, I'm always looking ahead to keep the guys on top of the game.

So then we ARE just having a philosophical discussion.

If you're a studio owner or a manager of engineers why not just say so. If you're a second engineer, or a runner even, there's no shame in that either.

My guess is Digi sales guy, or in pro audio retail somewhere.

-R

[The Eggman]

I totally agree with RKrizman on this issue. I actually like the size of my Pro-Control. I think Digi should release a smaller footprint expandable ICON, more in line with the Pro-Control price range. I guess it would have less individual controls per channel and we would utilize the master section more, like in the current pro-control. Such a system would definitely outsell the current ICON.

I know I would not purchase an ICON even if I could afford it .

DeVille

Deville,

My point is that the basic model of the ICON costs $60,000.00, I think. The center section has been designed to fit into the front-to-back depth of the desk. If you have a smaller footprint, how is the center section going to fit into it? Oh, so you'd like a re-design of the product. And while they're at it, you'd like to have this for a ProControl price? Digi already has the ProControl at that price point...why create another product at that level? Look at the fit and finish of the PC...it's sure got a lot of plastic going on and it costs $12K. Now, look at the fit and finish of an Icon. MUCH better, but it sells for $60K.

Like I said before, I don't really think it's the physical size of the product that's bothering either you or Kriz. It's the $$$. If this exact product were available for $20K, neither of you would give a hoot about the size...you'd be opening the champagne and staying up all night playing with the thing. And on the other hand, if the desk were physically smaller but still cost $60K, neither of you would be buying it anyway because you have concerns about whether or not it would be a wise financial move.

Your complaint about the size is just your way of saying to Digi "Can we get a version of the Icon FOR A MUCH LESSER PRICE"? And that's what I think is relatively unrealistic about your wishes. Kind of like saying to SSL, "I like your $600K J-Series, but I only need 16 channels of it...can I have that for $50,000.00?"

By the way, Kriz, we've got Florian up here as a user of the product and he doesn't seem to feel as though the desk's size is a problem of any kind. He might know better than either of us, since he's spent more time on it than we have.

[RKrizman]

Your complaint about the size is just your way of saying to Digi "Can we get a version of the Icon FOR A MUCH LESSER PRICE"? And that's what I think is relatively unrealistic about your wishes. Kind of like saying to SSL, "I like your $600K J-Series, but I only need 16 channels of it...can I have that for $50,000.00?"

Didn't they just do something like that?

-R

[The Eggman]

Didn't they just do something like that?

-R

Well, if you consider having channels with no dynamics, a desk with no total recall, a desk with no automation of the analog section and a Midi/Hui interface for $85K being that product, then I guess they did. In my mind, they're a far cry from having a fully functional 16 channels of J for $50,000.00. Not that I think that's realistic. I'm just proving a point that you want something that is most likely unrealistic.

In regard to your other post, no we are not just having a philosophical discussion. I am absolutely and positively no Digi sales guy, nor do I work in pro audio retail...nor have I ever on either counts. What I did say was quite true...I work closely with many of the big names and when I say work closely, I am surely not running to get them coffee or patching in their racks. Beyond that, I prefer to keep my anonymity in tact for my own reasons.

Your thoughts about the mushroom controls are interesting. I could easily see that getting used to these devices might take some time, and perhaps we will never feel about them as we do "normal" knobs. Could be. I don't have enough hands-on time to know.

I believe that you seem to be thinking that the cost of an Icon is there because of its "size". Meaning, if it had smaller knobs, the price would drop in half and that's not realistic.

Kriz, what you want is a Mercedes at a Hyundai price.

[RKrizman]

[
By the way, Kriz, we've got Florian up here as a user of the product and he doesn't seem to feel as though the desk's size is a problem of any kind. He might know better than either of us, since he's spent more time on it than we have.

I think Florian is bascially "loving the one he's with". I don't gather that he's thinking of buying one. I too could work quite happily on an Icon and would probable see it as preferable to a mouse. But that's pretty much damning it with faint praise. I've been working happily on a Trident for years but I still have a long list of things I'd prefer were different.

Florian is also doing post, I believe, so his requirements and considerations are different from mine. Fair enough.



-R

[RKrizman]

[

Like I said before, I don't really think it's the physical size of the product that's bothering either you or Kriz. It's the $$$. If this exact product were available for $20K, neither of you would give a hoot about the size...you'd be opening the champagne and staying up all night playing with the thing. And on the other hand, if the desk were physically smaller but still cost $60K, neither of you would be buying it anyway because you have concerns about whether or not it would be a wise financial move.

Actually no, it's not the price, it's the size that primarily bothers me. I don't think it's a great design. And as such it's not worth the price, especially if part of the justification for the price is the glitz factor. And no, I wouldn't buy it at 20k either, because at any price it's still not the right design for my needs. And by the way, you can throw around that 60k price tag, but that only gets you 16 faders.

I'd be much more likely to buy a compact, more ergonomically designed controller for 60 k than I would the Icon at 20k. As far as being a wise financial move, if it's the right piece of gear 60k is not such a huge investment and would be one I could easily absorb. Like I say, I've got my checkbook out.

You can stamp your feet and say it ain't so, but that's honestly how I feel about it.

BTW, this thread has had over 200 views. Has nobody else tried this thing out?

-R

[The Eggman]

But hopefully you see my point.

If it were smaller, yet still $60K, you wouldn't buy one.

If it were the same size as it is, but priced at $20K, you would buy one.

So your argument is not really about size, it's about price.

Just like getting a 16 channel J for $50K. Or a Mercedes for $10K. Or a Neumann for $99.00.


By the same token, you'd probably be MUCH MUCH busier if you just cut your rate by 75%. Instead of charging $1,000.00/day, why not charge $100.00? You'd be booked 24/7/365. Just like $20K Icons will sell like hotcakes.

Do you get this?

PS Just giving you a hard time!

[RKrizman]

Kriz, what you want is a Mercedes at a Hyundai price.

No, what I want is a Synclavier at a GigaStudio price.

Hmm.

-R

[The Eggman]

I'd be much more likely to buy a compact, more ergonomically designed controller for 60 k than I would the Icon at 20k.

Fair enough. What would you change other than making it smaller?