Dolby 7. Is everybody mixing at this level?

[dr sound]

Originally Posted by mr.armadillo

Here's the Dolby scale:

From 4 to 10 it's 5/3dB per 0.5 step.

10 = 95dB
9.5 = 93.33dB
9 = 91.66dB
8.5 = 90dB
8 = 88.33dB
7.5 = 86.66dB

7 = 85dB

6.5 =83.33
6 = 81.66dB
5.5 = 80dB
5 = 78.33dB
4.5 = 76.66dB
4 = 75dB

-------------------

3.5 = 65dB
3 = 55dB
2 = 35dB
1 = 15dB


From 0 to 4 it's 10dB per 0.5 step.

Thank you for this, Very informational.

[garnoil]

[QUOTE=dr sound;1794030]Thank you for this, Very informational


Yes, thank you very, very useful. Sorry I meant to thank Mr. Armadillo for the posting of the Dolby volume steps

[airon]

Thanks for the info on the Dolby levels.

I'm based in Germany and attended a screening of a cinematic edit and mix we did of TV show episodes. Fan stuff and it was a lot of fun. I talked to some of the crew in the cinema and they told me that a because of the events they stage(Germany premieres) they calibrate their rooms every month. And most theaters don't do that.

However, outside of premieres they routinely turn down the ads and turn everything back up for the main film. For the film, they'll watch the film before showing it to the public and then decide how loud the play it. I watched Fast Furious Five a few weeks ago in the theater and it was a little quiet, but barely so.

The argument was that some of the films literally send people out of the cinema. When they get a few complaints during the week, they start checking equipment first. If the complaints mount up they recheck the films loudness and turn the thing down.

You can look at it from their angle and from ours of course, and I was very polite when talking to them and thought they may have a point for some movies, but later on as I pondered the question of should they be able to change absolutely anything in the theater on a film by film basis, I have to say no.

There's one fact the projection crews, theater managers or whoever thinks they should step in and turn the knob seem to ignore.

They're not part of the production. They're part of the presentation. The master fader is part of the production.

As for the ads, if this wasn't handled this way, customers would complain in droves and the standard might be changed. This way, all we get is amateurs meddling with very expensive product.

For premieres btw, they told me that the distribution companies and in some cases the production companies actually dictate and check that playback is at 7, especially Michael Bay, who apparently sends people to the premiere theaters to make sure it is done right. And apparently quite a few people leave the theater because of the loudness, though I'd like to confirmed.

One has to wonder if the Dolby unit should have a damn knob at all.

John Cleese once said that making that which the twitchiest, whiny people think the standard is insane.

[airon]

I'd like to add an idea to this discussion.

How about a rating for film loudness. The "R" rating of loudness would happen for films that physically hurt their audiences, and PG is a well focused action movie mix that surprises, delights but doesn't hurt people. That way people who complain can genuinly be told to read the label before viewing the film.

[Noiz2]

Not that makes me feel any better but it's not just sound. Now with digital projection at festivals I have seen some films where the calibration was WAY off, they also screwed up the sound. Two of us went to see a film we had worked on at a local multiplex. We were sitting there and noticed that there were no surrounds and it was... mono??? It was listed as playing in DD. We went and asked the manager who said a lot of films that came to them as DD weren't. That was of course BS. We got our money back and saw it someplace else.

I'm a bit mixed in my feelings on the levels issue. As a sound person I want my work played back as it should be. On the other hand I saw 300 screened at Dolby and it was deafeningly loud. I had -15db ear molds in and I still needed to keep fingers close to cover when it got really loud. That film was criminally loud. The second Matrix film was also ear damaging.

So while I want my films played back as mixed I understand why theatre owners are turning things down on general principal. It's the industries fault that we are letting films get put out at ear shattering levels and I don't think you can ask theatre owners to leave the knob at 7 until you can keep deaf directors from forcing such high levels on mixes. I mean they have to make a living and if playing at proper levels is going to drive away customers then they should not be forced to do it.

The answer is to set some standards on what level is acceptable and to mandate that level not be exceeded. The alternative is either something like what has happened with broadcast. Or worse some law.

I don't mind loud but the two films I mentioned played at level and listened to with out protection would definitely cause damage. Folks coming out of the 300 screening were complaining about their ears ringing.

I think we need to clean up our own house before we lay it all on theatre owners. There is plenty to lay on them but not playing at proper level is one that needs to be dealt with on the mix stage first.

[TAFF]

But my point is, surely Dolby should be policing this? What's the point of them coming down and tweaking our theatres and mixes. Why are they print mastering these mixes if they are just too damn loud? Not everyone has the chance to mix big action movies and push the volume artistically.

Just my 2 cents as our American cousins would say

TAFF

[dr sound]

It's not Dolby's job. This is a subjective medium. How do I know what your criteria is on "What is loud"?
If it gets played at a reference level then at least we have a chance of hearing things as they were intended.

[TAFF]

Which is what I said in my initial post Marti. I'm mixing at 7. I'm just sick and tired of mixes sounding so different between cinemas. Apart from letters of complaint to the cinema managers there is nothing us meer mortals can do.

Taff

[SBP]

A lot of times projectionists just don't get the correct information -If you explain to them the thinking behind '7' and the Dolby ideal -that everything should sound the same regardless of the room -they usually 'get it'. Complaining usually gets everyones backs up. Suggesting the cinema engage (or re-look) at their maintenance/tech support often works. And once you find a good cinema -support it.

MultiPlexs are difficult -many are told that at '7' the system will blow up.
Other issues they have to contend with is sound bleeding between theaters and the threat of legal action if a client feels excessive sound levels have damaged their hearing during the film (I kid you not!) And thats just the sound many also keep lamp levels down to save running costs.

There are some really dedicated cinema managers out there that do care about presentation and appreciate how much work goes into the shows.


Bruno

[Noiz2]

Originally Posted by dr sound

It's not Dolby's job. This is a subjective medium. How do I know what your criteria is on "What is loud"?
If it gets played at a reference level then at least we have a chance of hearing things as they were intended.

With all due respect that is a cop out.

long term exposure over 85dB will cause hearing damage, 120 dB will generally cause permanent hearing damage and 130 is the threshold for pain. Many modern films hit peaks over 115 dB and I have seen levels in the mid 120's, so I think we can fairly say that once you start causing permanent physical harm to your audience you have reached too loud.
It's not really all that vague.

I really don't see why mixers haven't taken a stand on this since they are going to go deaf faster than the audience.

And this is only going to get worse as we get into a generation of directors who's hearing has been shot with earbuds and MP3 players.

But you know who's going to get sued first, the theatres.

The logic of "hey I only loaded the gun and handed it to the five year old, he pulled the trigger" is just going to get things legislated. Does anyone want lawyers and politicians dictating how you mix?

I don't mean to pick on mixers because few if any I know would be hitting those levels if Directors and producers were not insisting on it. But the mix is the best place to "fix" the problem so that kind of puts mixers in the middle.

We are all in a business where we are trained to support the director in getting what ever is possible that they want. But at some point safety has to come into it and there are films that have been released that are not safe to play at 7. That should not be able to be said. And as long as it is theatre owners will turn down the levels because they are the only ones taking the heat. I can't blame them because they didn't cause the problem and they have no power to alter it.

Though I guess if theatre chains got together and had release prints checked and refused to play films that were "too loud" it would have an impact. But I don't want them in the equation any more than I want congress.

I don't have a solution but you can't start to fix something till you acknowledge there is a problem.