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  #1  
Old 06-24-2020, 08:04 PM
podro podro is offline
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Default Using Pro Tools in a Live Environment - Latency and Buffering issues

Hello everyone, we are looking for help in using Pro Tools in a live mixing environment. We are a church that since COVID has been recording the worship team, and then remixing the music and rebroadcasting the taped version with the upgraded mix on the weekends. We purchased an intricate template built by another church that has lots of plugins including drum replacement, autotune, and a bunch of other reverbs, delays, etc. It was an immediate improvement over what we were trying to do before, as we have had minimal experience in using DAW’s, but the difference in the quality of what we produced was much higher!

Now that we are back to live services we still have a number of people watching the live livestream broadcast, and we’d like to move our live sound quality closer to post.

We would like to run our 20’ish live channels out of our Behringer X32 through Pro Tools to get the same quality of correction and eq that we had when we were mixing in post. Then we can run those tracks back out to the X32 and mix the levels to send live with video. The problem we are running into, using a newer MacBook Pro with 16GB of RAM, is the latency and buffering issue. When dropping it to 128 to we can sync the audio with live video, but the computer stops recording within 5-15 minutes because of the dreaded CPU overload error. Obviously, when mixing in post, we have the buffer size set to 1024, and have not received the overload error.

A few notes before our questions:
- We did get this workflow up and running. We have 2 X32’s in use. The second board receives the channels through AES50 from the first. Then we route those channels via USB to Pro Tools, then we route the channels back to the X32 through USB.
- Yes, we do know the live mix won’t sound as good as in post.
- Yes, a great sound engineer would get us closer than going through Pro Tools, but we have volunteers running the board, and we do want to use some of the effects in Pro Tools that we don’t have on the board.
- I have perused this board and others to see what builds are out there, but really need some clarification on how to solve the latency issue.

Here are our questions:

1. What are the key computer components needed to lowering the latency and buffering while being able to record, process, and output up to 32 tracks simultaneously? Is it RAM? Cores on the processor?

2. We are looking to spend around $3000 on a machine that will be our dedicated Pro Tools rig used not just for livestreaming services, but also for mixing during the week. We have all Macs at the church, and prefer the Macs for ease of use and computers that simply “work.” (Most of the time, of course!)
- Can the newest Mac mini be fast enough to do what we want to do? (3.2Ghz 6 core i7 w/ 64GB RAM is $2300)
- Do we need to go with a PC so we can more for our money?

3. If we go PC, we are able to get a discount on Dell computers (possibly a Precision Workstation?), but are also willing to purchase through “The Pro Tools PC” (i9 rack mount) website, or build our own.
- The issue with building our own is that we don’t want to have to be troubleshooting issues and errors that typically come when tinkering with your own system. We’d like a solution that “just works,” but are willing to take steps to get there and have a solid system.

4. If building… Is there a major difference in using Windows 10 Pro vs. Home? I looked on this forum and found a couple of builds that I put into pcpartpicker. Will this get us where we need to be?
- https://pcpartpicker.com/list/D2Qjx6
- https://pcpartpicker.com/list/7Ln3Dx - Special thanks to Mandal http://duc.avid.com/member.php?u=58037

I appreciate the knowledge already shared on these boards and look forward to any advice!
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  #2  
Old 06-25-2020, 12:30 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Using Pro Tools in a Live Environment - Latency and Buffering issues

Hi Welcome to DUC.

These are not the answers you want, but I think they are what you probably need to hear now.

You want low latency that is very reliable... you get that in the best way with $$$ and going HDX. But that is out of your budget.

Once you are in the rough ballpark of a decent modern computer, the key components to low latency reliable operations is an anal-retentive user doing proper setup, and troubleshooting.

You are getting CPU errors now.... you need to troubleshoot the heck out of them. You are jumping to assume whatever is happening will be magically fixed by upgrading hardware. That is not a good assumption. A modern high-end MacBook Pro should be a capable Pro Tools rig.

Unfortunately nobody here has *any* clue what actual errors you are getting or what is causing them so nobody here can really give you very useful advice about upgrading anything.

Are you running bad plugins causing problems? Older version or Pro Tools with (even more than usual) know plugin issues? Is your system totally absolutely fully optimized? Or is the interface and driver causing issues? A heavy/buggy plugin you should not be using live (limiters, plugins doing look ahead etc.)? Can you reduce plugin chain depths, number of tracks, sample rate, simply bussing/make better plugin use on busses? etc. etc. to reduce the load on the system?

What exact Mac are you on now, what exact version of Pro Tools, what plugins are installed? What exact drive is the session recoding to? What plugins/# instances are in use? What sample rate? How many tracks are you running, mono? Stereo? What does a session look like? You. folks should be all over that... if this is all greek to you then take it slow and ask for help... but also that may mean you really don't want to do this.

128 might just be pushing it, I have no feel for how good or bad this Beringer interface and drivers are. One question you should be asking is what buffer can anybody with a X32 run at reliably... I have absolutely no clue, but this is driver dependent.

If you are already using Macs then switching to a Windows PC does not seem a good idea. What platform do you know Pro Tools on the most? Go with that. I'm not sure this thread should really be in a Windows forum area.

The description of volunteers running stuff but not having skills to do good live mixing and then layer on all the complexity and potential unreliability of Pro Tools does seem a bit of a strange thought process.

In past times maybe a used S3L might have been an option (but too few channels?) but I guess Avid has abandoned the low end live market. Have looked at other live mixers? But I'm just not getting what you really get out of Pro Tools in this live environment or why you want it.

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 06-25-2020 at 02:01 AM.
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2020, 03:36 AM
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JFreak JFreak is offline
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Default Re: Using Pro Tools in a Live Environment - Latency and Buffering issues

Hi, welcome to the community.

I have done live mixing with PT since 2002 and for your budget I would recommend building an old Mac Pro 4,1 or 5,1 model and fit it with 2nd hand HD3 system and two 2nd hand 192 interfaces (16ch per box). Depending on the OS version you choose you can run PT8-10 with them and have very low latency.

The problem with old systems is that initially it is now hard to build, but the positive side is once you get it going you never need to worry about updating anything ever again.
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Old 06-25-2020, 08:20 AM
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Southsidemusic Southsidemusic is offline
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Default Re: Using Pro Tools in a Live Environment - Latency and Buffering issues

I Respect Janne a lot but moving backwards into TDM land seem couter productive and you would be stuck at PT10HD which in turn needs to be bought and thats adding another 1000 dollars secondhand and Pcie cards from TDM realm will not work with any PT HD version over 10HD!

Better do what Darryl said and take it from there when we know what type of errors you do get. I have seen soo many problems like these solved by optimizing and getting rid of certain plugins and making sure everything connected is truly talking the same language.

I would not even think of going backwards into a 20 yo system like a 4.1 mac with USB and no thunderbolt connections etc.

Let us start by looking at the error messages and plugins and take it from there.
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Old 06-25-2020, 10:11 AM
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albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Using Pro Tools in a Live Environment - Latency and Buffering issues

Good advice above, so here's my 2 cents, based on your budget:
Option 1-If(a great big "IF") there is a way to delay the video feed, that would allow you to stream on a slight delay, allowing the Pro Tools rig to use a high buffer.
Option 2-live stream off the X32 and not try to make that signal sound like the Pro Tools mix.
Option 3-split the audio and feed the control room and use a second X32 to mix just for streaming. This could get a very good sounding mix for streaming with no Pro Tools latency.
Option 4-Go thru the template and swap out plugins to recreate the same sound(or close enough) but without the latency. One good option for this is the Slate Everything bundle. It covers nearly any need for compression, gating, EQ, reverb and delay, and does it with zero added latency.
Option 5-Use a different DAW that doesn't have the stability issues. Don't get me wrong here as I love PT and hate using anything else. But it tends to be a finicky animal that will bite you just when you need it most. CuBase or Reaper might prove to be more reliable.

If Option 4 intrigues you, I'd be happy to consult with your audio lead if needed
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:07 AM
podro podro is offline
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Default Re: Using Pro Tools in a Live Environment - Latency and Buffering issues

Thanks for the responses! I will probably post this over on the mac side as well to see about optimizing our system and troubleshooting.

Here is some of what we are using:
MacBook Pro 2016, 2.4 Dual Core, 16 GB RAM. Recording to the internal hard drive. OS X Catalina
Pro Tools 12.0
Plugins being used:
Stevens Slate Drum Trigger, SSL channel, CLA-76, L2, C2, C3, Autotune Pro, C6, R De-esser, R verb, Eq3, ModDelay 3, NLS.
The vocals have the most processing on the channels, but all may have SSL eq enabled on them. (I may not have used all the right terminology here, so sorry about that!)



albee: Thanks for the options, here are my responses
Option 1: There is a hardware box for $800 which is cheaper than $3k for a new computer. This is a possibility.

Option 2: If you are referring to using the 1st X32 that we use for our live mix, that is not a good option as the mix in the live room is quite different that what is needed for the livestream.

Option 3: This is what we are doing for now, but with a limited band, and we can make it work. When we get back to a full drum kit, we are concerned for how it will sound as we were using drum replacement before and it was making a huge difference.

Option 4: It is intriguing, let me do some research into this.

Option 5: Different DAW is not really an option as we made a significant investment in time and money into pro tools, and we want to see if this can work.

JFreak: Thanks for that option, but would love to stay more current if possible. I know we can't always get what we want!
Darryl's comment: "The description of volunteers running stuff but not having skills to do good live mixing and then layer on all the complexity and potential unreliability of Pro Tools does seem a bit of a strange thought process."
I understand what you are saying in that it seems more convoluted. In theory, it would allow us to a lot of processing for drums/vocals/etc., and allow the volunteer to simply mix. You would just hit the record button, and if stable, should work.
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:13 AM
podro podro is offline
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Default Re: Using Pro Tools in a Live Environment - Latency and Buffering issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post

Are you running bad plugins causing problems? Older version or Pro Tools with (even more than usual) know plugin issues? Is your system totally absolutely fully optimized? Or is the interface and driver causing issues? A heavy/buggy plugin you should not be using live (limiters, plugins doing look ahead etc.)? Can you reduce plugin chain depths, number of tracks, sample rate, simply bussing/make better plugin use on busses? etc. etc. to reduce the load on the system?

What exact Mac are you on now, what exact version of Pro Tools, what plugins are installed? What exact drive is the session recoding to? What plugins/# instances are in use? What sample rate? How many tracks are you running, mono? Stereo? What does a session look like? You. folks should be all over that... if this is all greek to you then take it slow and ask for help... but also that may mean you really don't want to do this.
I will put together a more detailed list to work and walk through this!

When COVID happened it was a dead sprint to get something up and running and working and learn pro tools in just over two weeks with some minimal prior knowledge, which we did until we reopened. Then we did another dead sprint to reopen, to put everything in place to do a second separate live mix where we have never done that before. Now with a bit of breathing space we can troubleshoot this live mix issue.

I really appreciate a board like this that we can reach out and get help!
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